Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

Wuz up bredrin and sistren. Now in the bible it says it lists those that are gonna burn in revelation. Of those it says fornicators. Now I do not believe this because I believe the bible has been distorted and I think that the church banned fornication because then people might not get married, and if people could not get married then the church could not profit off the money they could recieve. Also if fornication is a sin were Adam and Eve fornicators. I mean I dont think there was a Priest there to marry them u know. Now people wanna say that making love is bad if your not married. Now I believe that having sex just to pleasure the sensations and get off by being selfish is wrong, but I do not see anything wrong with making love to a woman as much as you want just as long as it is consentual, your not hurting anybody, and it is about Making Love and not about getting off. Plus in the bible it was common for Men to have many wives. Solomon had 700. Plus Solomon had 300 concubines. A concubine by the definition I recieved is a mistress. The proper definition to apply to the mistress in this case is a woman with whom a man habitually fornicates. So King Solomon was a fornicator. Was Solomon not the most Wise man that ever lived? But I do recognize that Solomons downfall was interlinked with the love of women because if you read the Kebra Negast you will understand that Solomon took a wife who was a pagan and this wife tricked Solomon into worshipping her idols, thus the Lord condemned Solomon. But the Lord wasnt punishing him when he had all those other wives and concubines. Yeah just reason with the I and shed some light. Big up Grace.

The Bible seh several times that fornication is wrong.

Ezekiel 16:26-Thou hast also committed fornicationwith the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger

Matthew 5:32-But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Acts 15:20-But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication,and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:29-That ye abstain  from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, andfrom fornication from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Romans 1:29- Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

I Corinthians 6:13-Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

I Corinthians 6:18-Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

I Corinthians 7:2-Nevertheless,to avoid fornication , let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

I Corinthians 10:8-Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Galations 5:19-Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Colossians 3:5-Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth;fornication,, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

I Thessalonians-For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Jude 1:7-Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Even in the book of Revelations, where we get the promise of H.I.M:

Revelations 2:14 - But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.


Revelations 2:29-Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Revelations 2:21- And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Revelations 9:21-Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelations 14:8-AND THERE FOLLOWED ANOTHER ANGEL, SAYING, BABYLON IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, THAT GREAT CITY, BECAUSE SHE MADE ALL NATIONS DRINK OF THE WINE OF THE WRATH OF HER FORNICATION.

Revelations 17:2- With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Revelations 17:4 -And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication

Revelations 18:3 -For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Revelations 18:9-And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

Revelations 19:2-For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Read these carefully. These verses are not made up by the white oppressors because they wanted money. These words are of JAH Almighty. Do you see this?

Ras_Legacy, thank ya for saving me the effort.  I was going to grab a concordance and look up fornication to have the litany of scriptures you wrote there before him; and MOST IMPORTANTLY , I'm glad you used the Hebrew scriptures (and in Acts),to show that Jehovah disapproved of fornication all along  LONG BEFORE  institution of Christianity as a "religion."  Back when it was simply, "the way."

True Christians acknowlege that all scriptures are beneficial for teaching and inspired of God (2 Tim 3:16), so these Hebrew scriptures, like their accompaning Greek scriptures warning of the dangers of fornication are not to be taken lightly.

A lot of people (non-Christians being the dominant) will say that fornication doesn't violate their specific moral code.  Even that being so - look at what fornication produces:  an easier spread of STDs, and a culture in which divorces are the majority over successful marriages, mainly because fornication taints the mind and makes adultery more likely.  (do not make the mistake I am implying that it always causes such; it just abets it in many circumstances)

By the way, those red letters are a nice touch...powerful looking  ;)

What on earth is 'fornication'? Sex which is not sanctioned by the STATE? Who decides what it is? In the Old Testament of the Bible is the story of a father who delivers his daughter to a mob to be gang-raped, because there was some question as to her 'chastity.' There is no mention made of the father being punished. In most of the history of the world, 'fornication' is thrown around as another pretense for mashing down women. All I can say is that as a woman, when I hear a male thundering about 'fornication',that is a male to run from. Fast.

Rootsie, what are you talking about??   ???

Are you referring to the account in Sodom & Ghomorrea when Lot offered up his daughters to the mob who wanted to rape his 2 (angelic) guests?

And I know you know the definition of fornication, sex outside of the marriage bond.  Jehovah God designed man & woman to have a sacred union and to have sex with only one another.  Any extra-marital relations would be fornication.

Now you would run from a man that uses that word?  It seems you would run towards him - or men like him - in a world devoid of morals where people have sex with upwards of 10 people in a lifetime and such.  That is unless of course you endorse the lack of morality in today's world and believe free-love hippie sex is the way to go.

Will someone please try to justify the fact that King Solomon who was the Wisest man that ever lived was a fornicator as well as an adulterer. The man had 700 wives and 300 concubines, a concubine is not a wife. So was the Wisest man who ever lived Sinning, how come he wasnt punished until he worshiped the idols of one of his wives? Plus if King Solomon had not commited fornication and adultery and not slept with Queen Makeda of Sheba then there would be no Menelik and No Ras Tafari. Read the Kebra Negast, it is obvious that the Lord agreed with the union between them because if HE had not then he would not have sent the Ark of The Covenant to Ethiopia. Also a lot of Rasta sight up Bob Marley as a prophet, that he may have very well been, but if he is a prophet, he is certainly a prophet who not only commited fornication, but also commited adultery. Thank u.

Judges Chapter 19.

Verse 24:

"And the man the master of the house went out unto them ['the men of the city] and said unto them....

Behold here is my daughter a maiden and his [read the story] his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do what seemeth good unto you; but unto the man do not so vile a thing.[as rape him]

But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until morning...

And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house...and behold the woman, his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were on the threshold..

And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered..."

This peculiar little story is a good example of the xenophobia (fear of strangers) and the contempt for women that is so much central to this tradition.

When I think of fornication, of adultery (adulteration), of obscenity and abomination, I think of the daily violation of the earth and its people by ones who take their sanction FROM THE BIBLE to lay waste to the world. That is the meaning of carnality to me, that worship of greed and consumption.

True sexual morality has nothing to do with the institution of state-sanctioned marriage. I think of all the women being brutalized in their homes by their 'husbands' as we speak. The sort of nihilistic and destructive sexual behavior we see in the world is not the result of a failure to follow the rules the Bible so confusingly set down. In 'thou shalt not covet they neighbor’s wife' the sin is in the coveting. Adultery is 'adulteration', taking that which is clean and making something dirty of it, and that goes way beyond sex.  The sort of rigid literalistic interpretation of spiritual precepts we see on display here indeed does lead to violence and dehumanization and brutality of an unspeakable kind.  Historically speaking, the ones who have thought to impose their understanding of sexual morality on ones who believe differently have been the worst butchers.

Haileemperor, are you aware that Solomon grew to regret and lament his dealings with women?  

Read these words of his very own!
"Anyone committing adultery with a woman is in want of heart; he that does it is bringing his own soul to ruin.  A plague and dishonor he will find, and his reproach itself will not be wiped out.  For the rage of an able-bodied man is jealousy, and he will not show compassion in the day of vengeance.  He will have no consideration for any sort of ransom, neitre will he show willingness, no matter how large you make the present."  --Proverbs 6:32-35

So you see here he is lamenting that his excess of women have led to his own downfall.  He touches on this many times in Proverbs & once in Ecclesiastes.  

"For the commandment is a lamp, and a light the law is, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life, to guard your against the bad woman, against the smoothness of the tongue of the foreign woman.  Do not desire her prettiness in your heart, and may she not take you with her lustrous eyes, because in behalf of a woman prostitute...she hunts for even a precious soul." --Proverbs 5:23-26

Those are just a couple where he is warning those to follow to learn from his mistakes.  And I'm trying...I kind of feel it was Jehovah's direction for me to have to read these tonight and type them b/c of a situation I am dealing with.

Is your reason for pressing the fornication issue maybe self-centered?  As in, you want to or are fornicating and don't want to believe that Jehovah disapproves of it?  I could understand that as a motivation, because it's a very real thought in the mind of us imperfect human...and the sex drive is a very strong urge that we don't really have a lot of rational control over.

Now as for another thing you are saying:  that he committed adultery and fornication.  Absolutely he did.  And he regretted it.  Does that make him any less great a king and a man?  Of course not.  We've all sinned; we all sin; we all fall short (Romans 3:23).  His father, King David, had the same problem: women - and he fornicated with Bethsaida AND had her husband killed!  And if Bob Marley did the same thing?  SAME REASON!  Imperfect human.  Jehovah doesn't expect any of us to run a flawless course in the race of life, he just expects us to respect his commandments and do our true best to keep them.  It's not easy...great men fall short, and we will, too.  It's just when we stop trying that Jehovah becomes upset,

"My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the underserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ."  -Jude 4

Rootsie:
"True sexual morality has nothing to do with the institution of state-sanctioned marriage. I think of all the women being brutalized in their homes by their 'husbands' as we speak. The sort of nihilistic and destructive sexual behavior we see in the world is not the result of a failure to follow the rules the Bible so confusingly set down. In 'thou shalt not covet they neighbor's wife' the sin is in the coveting. Adultery is 'adulteration', taking that which is clean and making something dirty of it, and that goes way beyond sex.  The sort of rigid literalistic interpretation of spiritual precepts we see on display here indeed does lead to violence and dehumanization and brutality of an unspeakable kind.  Historically speaking, the ones who have thought to impose their understanding of sexual morality on ones who believe differently have been the worst butchers."

INI thank you for that bit of reasoning.  It allowed the I to view this from a different angle & perspective and is something to meditate on and later discuss with some of my brothers & sisters because it is certainly a very valid truth in today's world, particularly the poor treatment of women by their "husbands.."  (Though this is a poor "study" of any topic)--If you ever watch COPS on TV, it seems like half their calls are domestic violence!  My dad was physical with my mom just once, and then kicked out of the house, so it is something that is real to me, too.  The worst part of it being that I don't think I ever respected my father the same way after that night and it took a long time before I was able to forgive him (I'm not sure if that's ok or not).

As to the account in Judges:  that's a book I've only read one time, and I haven't studied that particular account or a good number of others in the Hebrew scriptures to know the context, customs, settings, etc, etc.  I'm going to ask someone more familiar with the Hebrew scriptures for an explanation on the matter, as to its significance and all.  I don't pretend to understand things when I don't.  So I'll get back to you on that when I have enough knowledge to actually reason and converse on the matter.  

To Out of Zion: It can be difficult to express ourselves when we are using a computer, but I can truly tell u that I am not self centered. Now my reading of the bible so far has gotten me up to Ezdra, as well as reading Psalms, Proverbs, Revelation and some of the New Testament. It has become very apparant to me that a very large amount of these "Righteous" men in the bible commited not only fornication but transgressed the Lords Commandment and commited adultery. The 12 tribes of Isreal were created by Jacob commiting fornication and adultery except for His son Joseph I believe who came through his wife Sarah. Why wasnt Jacob punished? As well as many other men commited fornication and adultery. As for the Proverbs u posted, I am not so sure that Solomon is speaking for himself but simply stating Proverbs or Wise sayings. I mean do u think it actually took King Solomon 1000 women before he said something about it, Im not so sure. But I do appreciate your input. I believe that u do not have to get married, I believe that Marriage is a political ploy of which the church uses to Establish and perpetuate Power, and Dictate what is their version of Scrupulous conduct. Now as for me, I only engage in intercourse on terms of making love and establishing a beautiful bond between a woman and I which hopefully can only lead to more understanding of one another and a relationship of which we can benefit from each other, now just to get our freak on. Thats not to say that we have to get down just to establish understanding one another but Im not interested in no girl that just wants to freak, I have turned down oppurtunities to just freak, that is indulging in sensuality. Now theres nothing wrong with enjoying intercourse but there must be balance, and I learned in my life from own personal experience that there must be balance in a relationship. Now as far as Love goes, Love is not limited to the bedroom by any means. A man and woman can make love by just engaging in conversation and deep reasoning with one another. Im not posting the reasonings to make sure that my conscience doesnt reproach me, I feel the way I feel. I do appreciate your input though. Blessings Perennial.

I see "fornication" as sex without respect or love, just using another human being for your own pleasure. That's wrong, but I have no problem with sex outside of marriage or having many partners through the course of your life. Out-of-Zion, you say it's wrong that in this society people have 10 partners through their lives? Why exactly? I'm up to 7 now and I ain't 'married' yet so I'm curious to know why I'm on my way to being a terrible sinner or something, because I've shared a lot of pleasure and good times with seven beautiful women, most of whom are still my good friends.

Haile Sellassie I had One Empress and that is the beloved Queen Omega Empress Itegue Menen... their union was the perfect balance, man wombman and child. Is not the Almighty more wise than Solomon? And wasn't the downfall of Solomon due to his concubines? From what I know Yahushua had one wombman and that was Mary Magdalene.
The earthcycle now is Rastafari and His Majesty is the perfect example in my eyes.  
Fornication- illicit sexual intercourse
adultery- sexual unfaithfulness of a married person

In my opinion, if you're having sex with someone, it should be with someone you could raise a child with, and it should be a physical manifestation of the love you share with that person. These days it's not only wrong to sleep behind your parnter's back, it's putting yours and your partner's health in jeopardy. That is marriage, an agreement that in this time you want no other and that you could raise youths together... it has nothing to do with being legally married.
But as everything goes, to each their own, who feels it knows it, I and I can justify plenty of things but the truth lives within each individual, whether we all agree on that truth or not.

yes sisMenen I, adultury is wrong. if two people agree to get married and agree to abide by their 'holy' vows then they should live up to it. if, however, one party wishes to engage in sex with someone outside the union, then it should be made clear to the other party. it is only fair. why go behind the other person's back...that's just wrong. the other person can be hurt in the process (as you have indicated either physically, psychologically or both). i do not believe that adultury is a 'sin'. in the first place, if two people decide to get married, they probably decided to be faithful until they expire physically....that was the agreement. if one party decides that he/she does not want to go through with it totally it is up to the other party involved to either accept or move on.

All I can say is... [smiley=clapping.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

It kills me that people think of pleasure as such a horrible thing. Stimulating the mind is pleasurable, so should we wait until marriage to stimulate our minds? And what is so wrong with having sex or making love for satisfaction, sure it can be deeper than that, but it is in fact a very stimulating act. If one of the reasons your having sex is not for the pleasure aspect then you are lying to somebody. I challenge those individuals who feel this strongly about sex to only partake of the act when they want to procreate.  

preach -

It has nothing to do with what people think, preach.  

What does JAH think?

"What peace could there be as long as there are the fornications of Jezebel your mother and her many sourceries?"  -2 Kings 9:22 (partial)

Jezebel was wicked living incarnate as the whore opposed to Jehovah.  And how did she mislead people?  With immoral sex.  

"Now the body is not for fonication, but for the Lord and Lord for the body."  -1 Cor 6:13 (partial)

& what happens to those that fornicate?

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and thsoe are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct...spiritism...anger...drunken bouts...and things like these...THOSE WHO PRACTICE SUCH THINGS WILL NOT INHERIT GOD'S KINGDOM."  -Gal 5:19, 21 (partial)

Don't get angry at Jah Jah for your own lack of regulation.  It's a constant battle, fighting the flesh and using treating the body as a temple (1 Cor 3:16) and sanctifying it, but he does not ask more of us than we are able to accomplish.  It's a matter of will though and realizing these laws did not come from "some people" as you alledge, but from our Grand Creator who cares about us and wants us to be happy.  Sex is partly for pleasure, but it will be a lot more pleasure able with a life partner when you're not worrying about diseases, unwanted pregnancies, and emotional duress.

Blessings.

who the cap fits,LET THEM WEAR IT.Empress menen had children already during her marriage with selassie I,was that wrong?some have ONE wife,some have SIX,SEVEN,its ALL ABOUT LOVE!,and not ONLY the Carnal part,these days men and wombman look for the size of the Genitilia of peers or how big their butt is,but after their intercourse,their OUT THE DOOR.

People can do WHATEVER they want, they are just going to be accountable before Almighty Jah at the judgment.  And he's a just judge.  INI will never tell anyone to stop what they're doing; I'll point a scripture out, show them what Jah think and it's up to them as to whether they adjust their actions or not.

Many don't consider  the bible as what 'Jah think'.

Pity for them they reject the loving inspired letter of our heavenly Father.

"Let them be.  Blind guides is what they are.  If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."  -Matthew 15:13

So are you saying all those that don't follow the Helio Biblio(Sun Book) as the word of God...and those that follow the more ancient teachings DIRECTLY from our African ancestors...instead of the much manipulated(by our oppressor I might add) Helio Biblio are "blind"?...Sounds like someone else may be closing their eyes... :-/

Mo fi sin Olorun.

My ancestors did not, nor do I need to be "saved" by colonialism and slavery. Which is the only reason WE have the Bible.

I forwarded this thread to a friend of mine from Zim...The response he gave was interesting and I felt it needed posting, and I am looking forward to responses on the matter...

"The references to the bible in the Fornication subject by some members is ridiculous. If we know the bible is the word used by the oppressor. Anything out of it is subject to scrutiny. What is the African cultural view on fornication? Before the bible we had ideologies that guided
our peoples. Culture controlled the essece of life(sic).Any quotes from the bible would be an abomonation of our cultural beliefs as a people. Lets quote from the teachings of our ancestors!!!!"


My further comments....

And as for the constant foreign(Biblical) refference to the reverance of the Goddess or the Devine Feminine by African traditional matriarchial peoples/cultures(and others) as Whores and Harlotts(the people are also often referred to as idoloters)....

"Black theology of liberation that is relevant to (South)Africa cannot afford to perpetuate any form of domination, not even male domination; if its liberation is not human enough to include the liberation of women, it will not be liberation."

This means spiritual domination also. Since as the Akan saying goes...

Nsem nyina ne Onyame ("all things/affairs pertain to God")

(By the way the majority 90% of the people who are in Jamaica come directly from the Akan) Should they not return to their roots?

Mo fi sin Olorun. (I do it in the service of God).-Yoruba

My ancestors did not, nor do I need to be "saved" by colonialism and slavery. Which is the only reason WE have the Bible.

out of zion, what exactly do you think? Do you have your own views or must your thoughts all come from the bible? I am not trying to attack you, I would just like to know if your personal views conflict with those of the bible and to stay in accordance you adopt those views? I ask this because some people are so influenced by the majority, their religion, or motivated by fear that they hardly entertain their own thoughts.

Back the misinterpretation train up.  Look who I was responding to and what I was responding to.

Tyehimba said that not all people accept the Bible as "Jah word."  Well, if you're going to worship JEHOVAH GOD, that is his method of communication.

If you're going to worship Allah, read the Qur'an.
If you're going to worship a multitude of Hindu gods and goddesses, the Rig Veda, Baghva Gita...
And so on...

SO, I was saying if people are going to claim to worship Jah and then not obey his rules, then those particular people, as CHRISTIANS, are blind guides.  Understand?

OK: now individually:

Oshun_Auset - What is the traditional African view specifically regarding sexual relations between unmarried men and women?  Solo curiousity.

preach - INI do have my own thoughts, and my thoughts are that I am going to let Jehovah God determine what moral standards INI live by.  Do I find it challenging at times to maintain chastity as I have reformed myself and await a marriage mate?  Of course.  I'm human.  But I respect my Creator's right to set the laws for my body.  Anything less is sheer hypocrisy.  And hypocrisy is the driving force disgusting many from coming to hear the light of Yeshua's gospel message because the people that have promoted it have been hypocritical NON CHRISTIANS.  It's my (and indeed every witness of Jehovah's) responsibility to be different and prove ourselves to be the faithful witnesses we are, doing our utmost to not bring reproach upon his holy name.

Well I can't answer for the whole continent, every ethnic group has different norms but I can answer for the traditional practice of the Yoruba from Nigeria(Ifa) that I follow.

Ifa is about life, our whole life, and sexual activity, expression and desire are a significant part of that.

For the most part, the views of Lucumi, Santeria, Voodun and an increasing number of Ifa Devotees reflect their Christian/Judea cultural indoctrination rather than the views, attitudes and observations of the wise men and women of ancient Africa.

Sexual activity, resulting in orgasm, provides individuals with a profound energy experience. The operative Creative Force that designed the logical Universe we live in, programmed us to be able to achieve this beneficial experience as a way of balancing the stress and tribulations of our everyday life. Olorun also assured that, through our desire to achieve this state, the continuation of our species was guaranteed. It is logical.

Organized Religions, from Judaism to Christianity recognized the power of this transcendent experience and, wanting to be the sole arbiters, and controllers, of our ability to reach ecstasy, or transcendence, sought to take control of this most Natural act. Some said it was 'dirty', others that it was only to be experienced when creating a child, and not simply for pleasure. Yet, every one of their conclusions was illogical and in contraction to the simple facts.

For example, if the Creative Force had wanted orgasmic sexual activity to be experienced only for the creation of a child, why didn't Olorun design us to stop feeling pleasure once our child bearing years had ceased?

On the contrary, sexual activity is designed for a host of positive purposes. It is the most intimate sharing of our most intense personal energy. And, it is in this reality that the reasons for the prohibition of sexual activity in front of the Orisha is created.

When we offer ebbo to the Orisha we are using the energy of the offering to form a triangulation between the energy of Nature (Orisha) and ourselves. The intense energy of sexual expression in front of the shrines of the Orisha too easily becomes part of an unintended triangulation (ebbo) with the energies present. So therefore we must keep our shrines to the Orisha outside of the bedroom or never perform a sexual act in front of the shrine. It is logic, not Divine prohibition, that always should guide our actions.

Despite the obvious issues of AIDS and other diseases, it is essential to keep in mind that this sharing of our ashe, through bodily fluids and pure energy, is the most intimate and intense experience we can have with another human being. To try and separate this physical reality, from the intellectual reality of the character and values of the individual we share with, is a recipe for disaster. In the peculiar way the West always breaks things into separate pieces, their ability to make sexual experience a stand-alone experience is inherently destructive. Indeed, it is this attitude that leads to rape, pedophilias, and sexual slavery. Remember, you want to share this energy with positive energy, and the ashe of the person with bad character will gladly take your positive energy in trade for their negative if you focus on only the physial act rather than the total person.

In traditional Africa, someone you pro-created with was your wife/husband...I actually deal with this difference in title in the West frequently. Many of my friends from the continent who have what in the West would be labelled as a baby's-mother/baby's-father, is referred to as the person's wife or husband. The distinction is not so readily made via a state marriage but is more in line with personal commitments to one another. This has changed significantly and is still changing more with the advent of Westernization and the Judeo-Christian-Muslim influenced definitions of such intimate relationships....

As for the traditional views on this with my friend from Zimbabwe(Shona peoples)...I will post that when he responds.

Interesting food for thought.  However, I would like to point out the idea of a "sex only for procreation" idea is extrabiblical.  Paul even wrote "do not be depriving each other except for an appointed time that the devil may rule over you for your lack of self-regulation."  - that is, he was saying as long as you have control over your pleasure seeking and it does not have control over you, that it was OK.  Still, this was balanced within the marriage arrangement.

INI personally feel that a big obstacle in all of this is just that, the marriage arrangement.  Marriage should be taken very seriously, but the problem is we begin to awaken sexually as early as 10 and do not marry until over twice that age (even 3x), which creates QUITE A HUGE window that one is expected to maintain chastity.  It's obviously not impossible, but needless to say, very few are able to do it.  Then guilt is the result, which is obviously counter-productive to one's spirituality when experienced in excess.

Thank you for educating me a little on traditional Afrikan views.

Correction. The Yoruba are largely in Nigeria, but pre-colonial Yorubaland also encompassed parts of Benin, and Sierre Leone, of course, many of us stolen Africans brought over during the slave trade are Yoruba also.

Hmmm...doesn't having sexual relations with multiple partners cheapen the spiritual meaning of sexual intercourse? I was brought up with the beliefs that having sex with another person means bonding-the whole process of marriage, commitment-becoming one with that other person. If one has sexual intercourse with more than one person, and feel bonded, what happens to that bond when those people break and split? is that bond broken? what happens to becoming one under JAH? is that only for a short time? Maybe the InI can clarify for the i?

Greetings,
Ras_Legacy, that is what I wonder also.
Yes it is hard not to give into sexual temptation and yearnings at times, but I believe that sex is the joining of man and woman back into one being.  The physical joining transcends into spiritual joining under the powers YAH.
One medical doctor from Nigeria once told me that it blew his mind when he learned that if under normal conditions the human body's heart was to beat as fast as it does when climax is reached, then it would combust!  Now, no one can't tell me that that is not YAH's hand keeping things in order!
However, if you do not look at sex as being spiritual and involving YAH, then other guidelines (possibly less stringent) will probably apply.
MISGANA!

I believe strongly in the Scriptures but who is the rightful person to sanction a marriage;marriage is a stae of mind. If the two people love each other and the emotional and mental is shared strongly and they want to take that step to join in the physical; no one can judge there love and what they feel. Marriage is in the mind and heart and if your committed to one person despite a sign paper given to u by the system; no one can take that away.

 If Jesus is the son of God , then God himself is a fornicator , for no where is it mention that he married Mary , instead it says she was betroth / espoused to Joseph(Matt:18-25) . It was Joseph duty and the dictates of Mosiac law that she should be stoned to death(encourage/tempted by the angel Gabriel , to break the law a sin of omission)  , for being with child that was obviously not his , an undeniable proof of fornication and possible adultery . So if this be the Law of God here we see him breaking it , to bring us the Saviour . What does this say of the law ? is God above the Law ? bearing in mind the Law is his WORD .

No Fornication is no sin , to sin means to break an oath made before Man or God(your WORD) or to(a lesser degree apparantly) break one of his Laws .

The Laws of God as seen in the bible , are all broken by God himself and most of his great proponents( patriarchs kings judges ,prophets ,disciples) ,from this what do we learn ?
1 .  That the writers or translaters of the bible  has or have messed up .
2 .  That God is whimsical , and does not feel binded by his own recommendations or injunctions.

I believe there is only one law - The Golden Rule , and all others are recommendations that are put in place to maintain civility , a peaceful society  and the orderly and fair transaction of commerce and social interactions . When this is threaten or found lacking or no longer relevant , the laws are abondon , so as to protect and maintain those whom the laws were made to benefit .To paraphrase a famous bastard child , "Man was not made for the law , but the law was made(to benefit) for Man" . As far as that is true Man holds dominion over the law and must use it to suit his higher purpose .

Always remember it is we who create  God , for we are God and God is us . So it follows that one must love the Lord thy God (Man) with all thy heart , mind , soul and body , that my bredren and sistren is the whole of the law and the prophets .


According to I

We must consider the fact the marriage did not always consist of a ceremony. It seems as simple as bedding a virgin. 'Taking a wife' in the bible simply meant to have sex wid di woman who was a virgin.

 I understand what you're saying about marriage but to me it is a patriarchal institution where the woman's body most times becomes a possession of the man. It is construct of the Western Society, a vestige of colonialism.  Additionally, a concubine or courtesan status is equal to that of a prostitute & according to the Bible- such behaviour is sinful- my question is  - will the souls of these women who were the concubines of King Solomon be saved? As in this era of the bible - there was no forgiveness from God or will their souls be saved for being the concubines of King Solomon ?