Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

I recently read an article in a mag/paper about gay marriage. The interesting thing is that individuals who oppose gay marriage never have an intelligent answer as to why they are so against it. Other than because of religious reasons, which isn't an individualistic or conscious but one of association, does anyone have an intelligent answer? One individual went so far as to say that it is a threat to the black race. How so?

My personal opinion is that they are no harm to anyone except themselves (which I say in light of the health implications that heterosexuals too face with abberant forms of sex.  Anal sex can cause tears in the rectal lining; oral sex can transmit disease; et al.).  I think too many people have too much free time to be focusing on inhibiting the lifestyle choices of others.  I personally do not believe that gays should be leaders within any true Christian church, but here in the western world we (ARE SUPPOSED TO) have a separation of church & state, thus religious view should not influence the forum of gay marriage.  AND YET - Republicans somehow fail to understand this concept, or perhaps more accurately:  feel they are God's representatives on earth.  Make no mistake, it is a Republican battle, as they glory in their own self-righteousness.

Honestly,I really dont know much on how they are a threat to the black race besides that many brothers like to live doubleside and live on the downlow causing the spread of HIV,STD's to their partners when the come home from their daily affairs.
In my views there is no sense of a "Gay Marriage" what can come of it besides of a "sore butt" and a "sore throat" and for both that later in life they may not be able to hold their bowels long enough to make it to the toilet.
2 Gay men can't produce a child and im not saying marriage is all about bring forth life but it is a part of it and they cant do that, even if they adopt how will a child be able to explain that to his teacher that he got 2 daddies and no mommy,how will that child survive in soceity no one knowz but yet they allowing them too adopt and have so called "families".Honestly I believe that many people are too conforming to their lifestyle and many are too accepting and giving them the right to do whatever they want and they are doing exactly as they wanted.I oppose gay marriage on both religious and soceity reasons, Jah created 2 genders male and female is it no where stated that man and man can go out and multiply or women and women etc. And as it states Jah Created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve and that the way it should be.

By all means, princess, live your life the way you wish... but why oppose gay marriage when it is something that could bring some happiness to a small part of an unhappy population? If someone wants to live happily in a way you wouldn't want, why prohibit them social acceptance and create more problems... if Jah wish them not to live so, they will come to know it sooner or later.

He without sin cast the first stone.

Blessings Aleph, your point is very well taking I guess their are more sides to a story than one but honestly what do you think of the generation that is living now and ones after how would they be able to understand and deal with such things in soceity.It is just sad to see what the world is coming too.

Please see this post.

http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/?board=gender;action=display;num=1064043608;start=8#8

Sad - and - not altogether new.  See Romans 1:21,26-32.  This was a problem within the congregations in Paul's time.

Notice in 1:28, "God gave them up to a disapproved mental state" and above that it refers to the gay acts.  Its because of their spiritual deficiencies that they fall into these heinous lifestyles.  

And as far as aleph saying "let he without sin cast the first stone," Poetic Princess is casting no stone at all, she's simply stating Biblical fact.  I'm sure she knows we're all sinners and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), but that doesn't mean she cannot point out the error of their ways.  Moreover, if you follow on to Romans 2:1 you'll see that (let me paraphrase here) you can condemn or adjust another so long as you are not practicing that sin.  Since Poetic Princess is not performing lesbian acts, then, she can speak out against homosexual acts.  She's condemning the sin, not the sinner.  That's JAH & Yeshua's duty and in due time they will:

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct...those who practice such things WILL NOT INHERIT GOD'S KINGDOM."  
- Galatians 5:19,21; partial quotations
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Besides - even if you step away from the biblical aspect of this:  it's contrary to nature as she said.

OHM.i think its COMMON SENSE to know that one shouldnt Alter with Nature,which is the Mother of us All.when one comes to the fact MENTALLY that same sex is "Alright",they are Deviating Mentally from the BALANCE Principles of life.they are NOT seeing the world as how it is with the balance of opposites,which is Reality.i am NOT Judging no one,but Fact and Truth is right infront of our faces.OH WAIT,i know what the problem is,most Gays and Lezbians failed Science class..... ;D (just kidding....a little)

Namaste

Thanks to all who responded. I don't know if I made myself clear when i asked if there were any well thought out reasons for opposing gay marriage. It almost seems as if those who oppose gm do so only because someone told them to or because they are following the general populous. The same religion that opposes the homosexual lifestyle is the same religion that invaded Africa and was instrumental in the capture, physical and mental enslavement of millions of my ancestors. This is a discredited religion that has rendered a otherwise loving god hypocritical by putting limitations on who should receive his favor. If it is at all possible can we have our own thoughts sometimes rather than taking the easy way out by accepting an outdated system. If we as a people are to be progressive we must include everyone in the diaspora.

I have prayed about this gay marriage issue, and my reasoning with God is simple.  We are not ones to judge. All must account for themselves to God.  Are we not a religion of Love? So why not Love our brothers/sisters.  We can love them, yet not love what they do...

As to my own opinion...Let them live their life, let them be allowed the rights of individuals in heterosexual unions.  As far as adoption goes, yes, it may be hard on the child to be raised by same sex parents in this society, but at the same, that child will probably have a better chance in life with loving same sex parents, than simply passing time as wards of the state.  For what other reason do we shun our brothers?  Did Yeshua not love the prostitute even, even though I'm sure he disliked what she did...

Peace And Love,
Jah Melku

I think this man's post was ignored by the origional poster. I personally don't practice Christianity and I know others on this board don't. This comment he made can apply to all spiritual system of African tradition. Balance is primary. "As above so below" is an ancient African concept. Where there is a God their was a Goddess. IMHO Christianity, and it's lack of respect for the divine feminine actually fosters homosexual behavior as a social phenomenon. There were always a few
homosexuals in traditional Africa(as everywhere else) and they were often tollerated prior to foreign spiritual concepts intruding into African culture(ie. Islam and Christianity), but that number was small in comparison to the homosexual behavior in the Christian West. Homosexuality in nature,  scientifically speeking, should be at a low occurance since it takes a female and male for procreation...We are social beings as well as genetic, and much of our behavior is socially developed, especially when speaking of mass behavioral phenomenon.

Homosexuality in Africa, in a large portion can be attributed to colonialism/imperialism and the white male power structure that caused all other people (Black females and males) to be exploited for labour or sex. In S. Africa today many of the homosexual relationships are between rich older White men and younger poorer Black one's. Power dynamics created by colonialism and the spiritual concept of an altered, all male holy trinity(Father/, Son, Holy Ghost) Instead of the origional African Holy trinity (Father/God/Osiris/Ausar, Son/God/Horus/Heru, and Mother/Goddess/Auset/Isis) creates an imbalance in every area of our world, internally and externally...sexuality, male female relationships, our relationship with MOTHER nature being that of exploitation and destruction, ect. {I do aknowledge the vestiges of the feminine principle in the adoration of the "virgin mother"...but that is only in Cathlicism and is a severe demostion from Auset/Isis/Goddess in the holy trinity...her propper place. Also I do ackowledge the Hebrew word for Holy Ghost is actually a feminine one, hinting to the fact it was a woman previousely...but the patriarcal Judeo-Christian religion does not teach this to it's congregation. Lilith(Adams first wife who was bannished from Eden because she liked to mount him instead of taking her "rightful" passive possition during sex (on the bottom)...is also a vestage of the winged Goddess in the Babylonian Talmud, but that was a later addition to the religion of the Torah and was used as a repressive tool towards venerating the mother Goddess Isis and her counterparts/incarnations in North East African and SOuth West Asia(the middle East). Lilith became a blood sucking, baby eating demon for wanting to be "on top" or "equal" and had to fly away. Isis/Auset coincidentally mounted Osiris/Ausar to create their son Horus/Heru in the same manner}

The dominant Spirituality, politics, economics, and culture cultivate different social behaviors in the populous. Therfore I don't see any point in attacking homosexuals as individuals or trying to prevent or fight against homosexual marriage within a system that is fostering that very behavior in the first place. Christianity oppresses the feminine principle in it's concepts and in it's organizations(women aren't in the hierarchy and there is no Goddess present)...Is it any wonder that a man would see it better fit to be with another man? We need to fight against the "system" and take the best of OUR old (African) traditions and improve upon them by adding the best of the new. We are out of balance....  

Here is a good example of how homosexuality is dealt with within "traditional" vodou/vudun/Dahomey society...without too much foreign Islamic and Christian influence, Africans have a "live and let live" mentality...while simultaneousely the culture does not promote or foster homosexuality in great numbers as is done in the Capitalist/Christian West...

http://members.aol.com/roots125/gayclergy.html

Futhermore, someone's sexual orientation would never stop me from organizing with them to liberate our people. We are all exploited and oppressed Africans first. Much of the imbalanced social phenomenon we have as a people will be minimized, once we have self determination as a people.

oshun. one point you made really stood out.Pardon my paraphrasing. The part where you briefly spoke about behavior being socially developed. Do you think that some homosexual behavior is socially developed? Do you think that would explain the flux of teenagers and even younger children embracing the homosexual lifestyle?

Actually I think most homosexual behavior is socially developed...that naturally/scientifically to be born that way would be a rare occurance(although it does happen) since it goes against what is needed for pro-creation...but this system fosters large amounts of it, which isn't logical scientifically/naturally speeking...I don't think it is about homosexuals "recruiting" others (as the conservative Christian right wing groups always say)...Far from it. I think it the system that is producing what I refer to as the "side effects" of capitalism and colonial/imperial Christian ideology.

It may not just be the ideology, it could be all the hormones in the foods we eat...I have read studies that show those are also affecting our sexual orientation. Never the less, that would still be a side effect of capitalism.

"The dominant Spirituality, politics, economics, and culture cultivate different social behaviors in the populous."

There is no balance in this capitalist society...It fosters such behavior in everyone(children included) from it's lack of respect for the devine feminine. It isn't just homosexuality either...it is all forms of loose sexual conduct(not saying that all homosexuals are loose), all forms of exploitation of people and the earth, and all forms of oppression. There is no respect for the sexual act, no respect for mother earth, and no respect for life itself. Everything is a comodity.

You will know the tree by the fruit it bears....The capitalist Christian apologist tree is wrotton and so are it's fruits. It is not only raping and exploiting others and their land...It is self destructive, and will feed upon itself. But then again, this house(colonial and imperial capitialism) was built on a foundation of sand(native genocide and the enslavement of Africans)...so it is bound to fall.

Babylon was great, that didn't make it "good".

Ohm.i read some time ago on one of the Message boards that Pollution in the waters caused Male seals to develope Feminine Genitals and not only that,but Scientists did a study on 10 Lambs.5 of the Lambs were same sex and the other opposite.they found out that the 5 that were Same sex LACKED the complexity of some brain placements than the opposites,no disrespect,but their Brain was,lets say,a species Back like the Neandrathals and Cro magnons and...u do the rest,lol.as far as ones being born "Gay",MY OPINION is that they maybe had a wicked Pastlife,because i know Jah wouldnt create ANYTHING out of order,that morelike Sa-tan ways to me!

What about hermaphrodites? Do you not see them as creations of the Godess/God too?

And if hermaphrodites with sexual organs of both sexes occur in nature...than what about brain chemistry being hermaphroditic, without the sexual organs showing that tendancy?

I actually saw a study on the Discovery channel...They studied slices of the brain area that determines if it is a male or female brain...and the gay males had female brain identification by scientists and the female gays had male brain identification...If a sexual hermaphrodite is possible in nature...why not a mental one? Although I think it would be a rare natural occurence...hence I think the majority of homosexuality today is socialized behavior...

I know this is just your opinion, but this same mentality HAS AND CONTINUES to be applied to anything that one does not like - -- check the caste system in India.

On the psychological and sociological front(as opposed to the biological and environmental front) - I think that through our enforced and out of balance gender roles, people get confused and feel the only outlet for the parts of their personalities which are frowned upon by the programming they receive from social forces is through homosexual relations. Repressed emotions come out in perverted ways . . . Catholic priests are a prime example.

I agree with your analysis on the psychological and sociological front(the amount of homosexual behavior is too high to just be chalked up to an occurance in nature, but do you think, even if they were a very small #, that there is the possibility of some mental hermaphroditites? And that if the spiritual and cultural feminine repressed system we live under was replaced by a balanced one...(since in IMHO that is what is creating the out of balance gender roles, as well as everything else out of balance in this world/life/culture)...Do you think there would still be a few "naturally occuring" homosexuals...or is homosexuality purely developed socially in your opinion?

Good point Iyah 360,

Nazarite...I'm actually surprised that you stated this since you seem to post so many things about balance and imbalance...that belief system doesn't usually coincide with a God/Devil belief...You previousely mentioned the  "BALANCE Principles of life" and "the balance of opposites".....please explain how you reconcile these two seemingly opposing views...  

I think homosexuality happens in natural circumstances,  occasionally. I have read that certain indigenous cultures have a special place for them as they are rare and have a unique perspective. Many other rare things occur in nature too which are unique.

Today though . . . Western man's abuse of the environment has imho altered it to a point where anamolies and strange manifestations are becoming weirder and more commonplace and I think there is a need and hence a push for this to become acceptable.

How many things do we have that we didn't need a few years ago that we now "can't live without"?  

I see where you are coming from now...it looks like we agree on this subject...once again of course :)

greetings to all. the way I have come to view the use of condemnation, is that it is only mandatory in instances in which ones will is given to incursion by another ones will. it is a man or womans own business as to what decisions they make for themselves, and the way that they endeavor to manifest those decisions, whether it be for their own well-being or harm. homosexuality is naturally contradictory to progressiveness. however, if ones want to engage in this, with the knowledge of its harmfull consequences then that is their choice. cigarretes are the most harmfull drug known to man, however if one wants to sit in their own house and smoke them by themselves, with the knowledge of its harmfull effects that is their choice. but the instant that person blows any of the murderous substance in another persons face, they are bound to recieve fIre and condemnation.

now concerning these harmfull acts, it is up to those who contain knowledge about the adverse effects, to bequeath their knowledge to others. when these acts raid another persons will it is up to the courageous to stand and speak out against wrong boldly and bluntly. as in the instance of what is going on abroad concerning the iraqi prisoners. I do not believe much has to be promulgated for Iveryone to know the evil of that situation.

concerning homosexuality, I condemn the exposition of gays who wish to raise a chIld. the reason for this is because I have formerly stated that homosexuality is a contradiction to progress. only Man and Wombman can bring forth children, and thus only a Man and Wombman in unison can adequately raise a chIld to successfully obtain a progressive intellect.

to tell the Truth,i used the Reincarnation statement in the wrong time,as  i dint mean it the way that Iyah thought.as far as the Caste System,they might use that law according to skin color,so i OVERstand where i made my fault.Oshun-Auset,maybe im kind of slow right now (as i am VERY TIRED),but what belief system doesnt coincide with a God/Devil belief?are u talking about the Reincarnation belief?

A lot of traditional beleifs in Africa(and other indegenous traditions elsewhere) do not have the God/Devil concept. Some have incorporated it now because of European and Arabic spiritual colonization and syncretism with Islam and Christianity, but take for example what I practice....Ifa(the tradition of the Yoruba) .

Ifa doesn't have a devil, there is just balance and imbalance. Imbalance causes what other spiritual systems refer to as "evil"...We see what is labelled as evil or sin as the earthly manifestation of a state of spiritual imbalance (in this "modern/western/Judeo-Christian and Islamic" dominant culture it is the lack of respect for the devine feminine). The European colonialists came in and saw Eshu/Legba, one of the Orishas(angel like intermediaries) who governs the crossroads...The "medium" between the physical and spiritual world of the ancestors and Olorun(God)...Eshu/Legba's symbolic representation happens to have horns...so to the white man, this Orisha had to be the devil(they never saught to ask the symbolic meaning of the horns to the Yoruba, jsust patronizingly decided on their own, plus, the Africans had to be "devil worshippers" to justify slavery and colonialism...pretty convenient)....

Also the Kemetic traditions have Neteru(similar to Orishas)...no devil. In fact, the story of Seth and Horus(Set/Heru) fighting is symbolic for the eternal struggle of maintaining balance. The 'set'ing of the sun and it's eternal rising...The balance and unity in opposites. KMT is where the Judeo-Christian traditions developed from, but a lot of misinterpretation occured and people often now think that Set represents evil...much of this misinterpretation was done by the outsiders, or foreign conquorers of the Nile valley complex...much like the colonial misinterpretation of Eshu/Legba...Both of these traditions(and many others...Ying and Yang for example) see the God/Devil system as being out of balance because it labels the devine Masuline as God or Good...and the devine feminine as the Devil or Evil...thus giving humanity the urge to destry the feminine or remove it completey, causing imbalance. So to many other  (older)systems of spirituality, the repression of the devine femine, and the labelling of it as evil by Judeo-Christianity/Islam, makes the entire spiritual system out of balance...This is viewed by older systems as deriving from the spiritual immaturity and arrogance of these  YOUNG religions...Hence the exploitation of Mother earth(Medu Neteru), the Goddess concept is missing(no woman in the Holy trinity, or rather the perversion of the origional holy trinity of KMT)...and the other physical manifestations of this lack of balance in society. One of which we are discussing here.

Oshun-Auset,Perfect reasoning u just brought forth,and it makes All of the cents in the world.instead of me saying that they have Set-an ways,i rather say that they are following their Base chakras or Lower self.i would like to expand on the reasoning here,and i wil dop it tomorrow,as my flesh is weak right now.Bless :)

  Doesn't an imbalance occur when there is an excess of one thing. And in the true sense of balance the opposing force creates balance. Does homosexuality create balance? With the deteriorating family structure and relationship problems and role reversals in marriage, could homosexuality bring a balance. Or is it actually causing the imbalance by presenting an escape for frustrated individuals like the formal?

I would think that it must bring a seeming balance to the peoples lives who indulge in the behavior and this is partly the reason for engaging in relationships of this sort. We accept so many placebos to offset things that are products of the weird culture we live in. For example - every other ad on T.V. is for some pharmeceutical drug to take care of symptoms of deeply rooted health problems, many of which are brought on by the drastic IMBALANCE this culture has with the natural environment.

Homosexuality isn't creating an imbalance, nor is it creating balance(since it isn't rectifying the original imbalance)...It is the Placebo(thanks Iyah) or bad fix for a state of imbalance in our society. Just like the green house effect is a sympton of an imbalance. It doesn't create balance and rectify the original imbalnce that is causing it's existance(polution), it is one of natures reactions to our out of balance actions. We need to get to the root cause of all of our imbalance in our dealings with nature, family/societal structure, ect, otherwise we will just continue to spiral out of control and destroy ourselves and our environments. (The 'root cause' IMHO is the lack of respect for the devine femanine)

oshun and iyah thank you for your responses. Correct me if i am wrong. In your opinion(s) homosexuality is the result of or reaction to our imbalanced culture. Pardon me if i am wrong. If so the factors leading  to homosexuality would include anything from deep psychological reasons to too much zinc in the water supply. Is it necessarily a negative. And if it is just an escape for some, doesn't escape render something positive.  Or should homosexuals seek help to find the root of their sexuality so that they can be cured. Or is the situation so deeply rooted that it occured during fertilization.

you can't tell anyone what to do. everyone has the right to a choice.

we have to address the imbalance in our own lives and try to respect balance in our everyday thoughts and actions. it is through this power that things change. i am not hung up on the homosexual issue like many people are . . . i just see it as a sign of where we are as a culture.

I agree, and I would also add we need to organize ouselves in mass to change the out of balance culture/system we live in/under to minimize out of balance responses/symptoms/manifestations in individuals and societal phenomenons. Man created this culture through organization. We can change it or replace it with a balanced culture through organization. I don't label individuals or their actions as negative or possitive. That is too judgemental, too much like the God/possitive/masculine  Devil/negative/feminine philosophy that causes the imbalance in the first place. Balanced and out of balance would be more appropriate to describe my view of individual and societal group behaviors.

Because of man's imbalanced society some may be homosexual at conception...It may develop from psychological/spiritual imbalance...or any other number of reasons(as you have pointed out). Some homosexuals, depending on what is at the root cause of their behavior, may not be able to change, some may...I'm not worried about curbing individual behaviors...that is too much like a dictatorship. My concern is mainly with possibly elliminating the out of balance society. Not necessarily to irradicate homosexuality as a societal phenomenon, I'm more worried about the health and wellfair of the masses...poverty, oppression, eploitation of labout, destruction of our natural environment, ect.. ect...Those are out of balance manifestations/symptoms/responses that are at the core of why I think we need to create a balanced society, together...  

I agree with poetic princess 100%.  It does not matter how you look at it.  It is animalistic behavior.  THe definiton of the word sodemy in the dictionary means to perform anal intercourse committed by a man with a man or woman. Why should we as conscious people promote this buggering.  If we allow this lifesyle to prevail. The quality of human life as we know it will be on the decline.  If this  is the way it was meant to be then we would not have both the male and female gender.  Religion health issues what ever the claim is it is on wrong it's not normal.  I feel as though gay marriage is an insult to the institution of marriage.  More fyah !!!!!  

BLessed  

Peace Blessed. No one ever has a real answer for this question but here it goes; Exactly how is homosexuality a threat and/or insult to marriage? If marriage between heterosexuals is so strong then how could homosexuality disturb it? Perhaps heterosexuals who take your position are afraid it may rub off on them or maybe the inner gay that they were trying to hide will rear its head. I think some must really dig deep inside and ask themselves why do they take their standpoint on this issue. Can it be compared to a racist who has no earthly intelligent rational reason to hate but for the hell of it. The fact that a person is gay does not directly affect the individuals in their vicinity.  The threat of a national takeover is not imminent and humans will continue to procreate.
In my dictionary, The Oxford, sodomy also includes oral copulation. Knowing this if you are engaging in oral sex perhaps you need to stop Blessed because it is insulting.
one.