Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

Greetings Everybody,

I would like to send my greetings to all of you people -- FROM AFRIKA! I arrived here with my family last week and will be here for a couple of weeks. Tomorrow or sometime later this week, I will upload to this site some REALLY nice photos of where I am at the moment.

It is beautiful here and warm.

Greetings to all! [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

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PatriotWarrior

What country are you in? I'm going to Togo and Ghana next week so I'm curious.

I have never been out of the United States (:o) Please, PatriotWarrior, teach i about Afrika, and what you are up to there? Blessings on your visit!
-Sistren Legacy

yeah what country?

Greetings all,

Just wanted to drop a line while in the mother land. I've been to Senegal for 2 days, Cote d' Ivoire for 1, and will be in Ghana the majority of the time. I will be visiting Togo for my last 2 days....Just wanted to let everyone know I didn't dissapear. Looks like I'm missing a lot of good topics. Looking forward to catching up when I return to the states.

Ashe,
Oshun Auset

How is Senegal? I've been eyeinng Senegal for sometime.

How is your trip going thus far? How are the people? How is the weather? How is everything lol!!  ;D

I'm excited for you since this is your first time there.

Hello guys!

Thank you all for the friendly messages. I arrived back from Afrika last month and had a really wonderful time there. Well, to answer you briefly, I visited Zambia & Zimbabwe … [I am Zambian/South African by nationality] … and visit that place almost every year since I started living in Europe. The place is really nice, the weather superb{!}, the people more friendly than any Europeans … but the most disturbing thing is that almost everything -- i.e. businesses, large chunks of industrial & arable commercial land -- is (still) owned by foreigners: I mean foreigners such as whites (South Africans, Europeans and Americans), Indians, Arabs, other Asians etc. This fact is REALLY very disturbing to most Afrikans there, considering that our people are growing poorer and poorer day by day, and the government supposed to be leading them is busy conniving with those aliens and selling out almost the whole country bit by bit… (I’m particularly referring to Zambia here). Otherwise, my journey to the Homeland was O.K.

Here are 14 pics I chose to “share” … They were shot in Lusaka (Zambia), Livingstone (Zambia) and at the Musi-o-Tunya Falls, famously known as “Victoria” Falls (at the Zambia-Zimbabwe border).

... Musi o tunya means "the smoke that thunders" in Lozi, a Zambian language ...

Cheers! ...  [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

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(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG0392.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG0498.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG0499.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG0547.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG0592.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG0619.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG0741.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG0853.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG0858.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG1041.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG1050.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG1082.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG1089.jpg)
(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG1097.jpg)

Nice pictures. Unfortunately my purse got snatched in the French airport...It had my cameras in it...So I can't post any...

Is this your daughter?...She looks just like me when I was young...kinda creepy...it shocked me.

See...

(http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/bp/Oshunauset_tn.jpg)

Wow! ... Thanks for the pic!

Yes, that’s my daughter, the only child I have (she’s 6) … I think you’re right that she looks like you when you were young, just a guess ... Well, for you to judge a little more, here she is again:

(http://www.african-poet.com/images/Mulima.jpg)

Greetings!

Yes, she looks like I did...I have that same purse also , and wear it the same way!...that's a trip...

She's a cuttie...and I'm not saying that cuz she looks like me... ;)

That's good that you took her to Africa.

PatriotWarrior,

Seeing your child is multicultural do you think she should also venerate her European culture and heritage? Do you think your child should end up growing having strong Black African cultural education with a solid European background to make her a "balanced" person?

B.K

Greetings Bantu!

Your question is interesting, somehow difficult to answer, but I will try ...

I really don’t think it is all up to me -- alone -- to decide whether or not my daughter should venerate her European side of “the coin”, but I think I have to be there to make sure she doesn’t fall victim to the “politics of race” that, as we all know, persist in this world, since she is my daughter. Look at it this way: she is of course generally regarded as “black”, though, biologically speaking, you and I know she is just as black as she is white. Unfortunately, children like her easily fall victim to such racial classifications and so it shouldn’t be anyone’s surprise that they easily develop complexes about themselves, about what they really are, where they truly belong or how they have to view themselves (of course in relation to how they’re viewed by others). But that is where their parents come in, depending on how they bring them up, what they expose them to.

I must also mention that my daughter wasn’t “planned” (as such), but really was an “accident” … not that I never necessarily wanted to have a child like her, but because both her mum and I were caught “unawares” … what I mean is that the pregnancy was accidental -- (and I hope it isn’t wrong of me to say such a thing).

On the other hand, I have no doubt that my daughter’s (German) mother and I fully understand the difficulties that arise in bringing up such children, and such difficulties multiply especially when such children's parents are no longer together, as is most often the case in many interracial relationships … Personally, I think someone like my daughter needs to be exposed to her Afrikan roots much more than to her European ones, allow me to say, since the Europeans/whites would never even regard her as fully a part of them. We Afrikans are different, as you know very well. I know only too well that it is due to such reasons that I have to be there to *protect* my daughter, or else she would surely go astray!! Fortunately for me, her mother thinks the same as I do and there is absolutely no “tug of war” between us regarding such very important issues concerning the raising and future of our daughter.

So in short, yes, I would like my daughter to identify more strongly with her Afrikan heritage, but I also understand that we generally live in a “white culture”, a “white people’s world”, anyway (except things were to change for the better in the near future, as I hope they will)! European influences, or mis-influences, are totally inescapable! My daughter starts school in two weeks’ time, and she will receive a European formal education, just as we all did. She was born and is growing up for the most part in Europe (though I would really appreciate her finally going to settle in Afrika, like her father one day will, which is just a question of time …); and so the European influence is unavoidably already there, just as it is in all our lives … no wonder many of us Afrikans get brainwashed and lost in a mountain of European books, for example.

Anything else will be left to the test of time … but I can honestly say I will do all I can to protect my daughter, and let her know she is very loved by ALL her Afrikan family, which she knows already, anyway!!! I know she won’t be too stupid to overlook such facts, to weigh facts, and I honestly think she’s the one and only {multiracial} child I will ever have {except I’m mistaken}!

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By the way, my daughter’s name is “Mulima”, which means “farmer” in Lozi, a Zambian language; her mother wanted her to have an Afrikan name and my dad gave her that name. It is also a royal name …

Regards! … (and hope I didn’t rant too much).

P.W.

I hear and feel you Patriot Warrior.. You made good points saying that generally speaking the majority of our people in the Diaspora are definitely mentally enslaved, so confused whether they are multiracial/mixed or not... and that rarely white Europeans question multiracial Blacks about their ethnicity anyway. Nonetheless, the mother of your child is still full caucasian, therefore why your child should consider herself Blacker? Why she should automatically be thrown into the Afro-Black category when she is someone born in Germany of German heritage? Do you think it's fair to prevent your child to appreciate equally her European roots? Her mother is German, so IMO, I think she should associate with her European part as well, because it's all over her face and genes. There is no way around it.

Believe me brother I'm not trying to hate on your family or not mind my own business I'm just trying to understand this issue.. May I ask you another question: Do you think distancing mixed Blacks from their European part is really helping them in the Diaspora, and is (or will) bring about conscious and concerned conditions in society? How other multiracial people or parents of multiracial children with Black/African genetic background feel about about this?

BTW your pictures are awesome [smiley=grin.gif]. Thanks for posting them here!

B.K

Greetings PW and BK
I thought I'd throw something in as another 'multiracial' person. My dad's Welsh and right now I'm actually living in Wales for the first time in my life. (I've always lived in London when in the UK before). So this is my first real reconnection to the celtic side of me, apart from sporadic visits to my grandparents' at Nesta (!) Road, Cardiff. Well I must say my impression of the Welsh people here in Swansea is quite positive so far, I find British whites in general to be less fully programmed into racism compared to their US counterparts, and I would venture to surmise that the celts are less racist than the general population of British whites. This is not to say that there is no racism here, of course there is, and extreme right-wing views are growing in some country areas where there's a lot of unemployment and people are looking for a scapegoat to blame. But in general, I don't feel any racial vibes when I walk down the street. One thing that strikes me as odd is how 'Welsh' the Black people here are; it's not a lot of Black people in Swansea and those who've lived here their whole lives or a long time seem (at first glance/hear) to have very little other than the color of their skin to distinguish them from the whites. Even in London where 2nd and 3rd generation Blacks speak in a cockney accent or whatever, it's usually a cockney accent with at least a little flavor of JA or GT or Trini or Bajan or Nigerian in there, here, these people sound as Welsh as Welsh can be (but maybe I'm just not good at distinguishing Welsh accents) and have the same similar mannerisms and ting as the white Welsh.
Well maybe this could have something to do with our cultures being more similar anyway, cos Celtic and African cultures do have some things in common (in fact the Celts could possibly have partly African roots which is another story). Celtic bards were the equivalent of griots, the old spirituality and the folklore remind me of some traditional African beliefs and stories, music and epic poetry are very important and of course, more recently, we both have traditions of resistance to an invading colonial power (the same one, England, in many cases- but of course with the British empire many of the overseers etc, on plantations were Welsh or Scottish or Irish, cos they were second-class citizens at home but they could go the carrybeyond or Africa and have someone else to push around so they could feel like big men).
With all that said though, I still can't feel completely comfortable moving through a city with a large majority of white people, no matter how nice these people might be, I need to see my people around and 'my people' are without a doubt African people, more than Welsh or Celtic. Maybe I would have thought differently if I was raised around plenty white people, I don't know.
'Multiracial' people shouldn't try to deny or be ashamed of any part of their heritage (like how an ex-girlfriend of mine always denies any white ancestry, although it's pretty clearly there from her features- her dad's white but she would never admit this to anyone but close friends). At the same time, if the mix is Black and white (or anything and white I suppose, but I won't speak for others), I think it's important to know that you are BLACK. Because (1) almost anywhere you go in the world, if you are recognizably Black then you will be more accepted by Black people than white, period and (2) the Celts (for instance) may have suffered brutal oppression through the ages, but they are not really particularly oppressed now, the Welsh language used to be banned, now every sign and gov't publication must be in Welsh as well as English. So the Celts don't really need any more warriors to fight for them right now. We Africans do so it's important for us as 'multiracial' people to recognize where our first loyalties lie. Now make no mistake my loyalty is to the entire human race and indeed all life forms cos we are all manifestations of the Most I JAH life force, but where I fit in in this dispensation of time, is as an African, and that's where my primary loyalties need to lie. I consider myself a human, an African/Black man, A Guyanese and Welsh in that order. (If I'd grown up in Wales the order might be a bit different).
Well that is my two pennies on the subject- acknowledge all sides of your heritage but know that you are Black first, otherwise you gone end up quite confused and Africa could lose another warrior at a time when we need them the most.

Thanks for your insights Gman. Your testimony of the Welsh group in Europe is interesting though as far I know Irish/Celt/Welsh folks here in America are the "oppressors" by emulating the behavior of their white brothers. Light skin privilege is an unspoken rule, the person who receives the benefits from having light skin does not have a say in the matter even if they wish not to receive the benefits because they are light skinned.. That's why the notion that Negroid/Black/Africans and multiracial mixed Blacks are entitled to equal contemplation does seem disturbing to me. The "we are all Afro-Black" attitude "no matter our genetic background" that is found in many multiracial Blacks from receiving an Afro-centered education and information that they believe is relevant to their lives still not does reflect on who they are. By the time a light skin multiracial child gets older the relevance of this Afrocentric information in his or her live is questioned because ultimately he or she will get in and out the white exploitative and oppressive system perfectly fine but Negroid/dark-skinned/Black/African group get challenged.

My thinking is that if multiracial Afrocentric Blacks could embrace and acknowledge their European background (as opposed to be perpetually reject it) that could be a first step in establishing better understanding between the races. Maybe even more importantly, it could be the vehicle to allow them to be more comfortable with themselves. My sense is that so much of the void between whites and Blacks is due to long-held thoughts about race that are consistently left unsaid, as well as perceptions just under the surface that are never brought up until directly confronted. Often times when they are confronted, they are packaged with all sorts of emotion and anxiety that it prevents honest and open dialogue. And when you listen to many multiracial Afrocentric Blacks (like you Gman) talk about their perceptions of their European background it is really clear that there's not much communication with their white European relatives going on too.

I think that until they talk about race issues without the emotional denial of who they are things won't get any better. Most Negroid/Black/Africans will agree that some type of frank talk between multiracial Blacks with their European brothers is a good step toward starting the healing process.

B.K

Alafia everyone,

For those that don't know...O couldn't tell from my picture...My mother is European/White and my father is African/Black....I identify socially, historically, and politically as an African/Black.

Kelani,

I agree that the oppression suffered under the white supremacist/colour caste system, that capitalism has created as an excuse and rational for exploitation, is much more severe for the darker people...that is the nature of a colour caste system...so equal 'contemplation' shouldn't be given...but since both of our oppression derives from the same source(oppression because of Black/African or "multi-racial of African ancestry") we should link up to fight the common oppressor. We suffer for the same reason, because of our Black/African ancestry...to varying degrees because of the colour caste system....and lighter skin priveledge must be acknowledged...but the light skinned or multi racial people are still oppressed.



I respectfully disagree,(as you knew I probably would ;))

For me, the "we are all Black/African" attitude came from my experience with whites and this system...not from recieving an African centered education(which nobody actually "recieves"...we all have to actually seek it out...) I'm "older now" and actually it(the African centered perspective) is more relavant now than ever before.  I definately do not agree that we "get in and out of the white exploitative and oppressive system perfectly"...That is quite an overstatement of the facts...Although I concur that their are many advantages that light skin gives you(although most are superficial)...however much you may not want them...the Euro/White dominated system NEVER treats you as one of "theirs" on a personal or on a systematic level. That would be a violation of the caste system. Some priveledges are given, but oppression is still there. Historical examples of this can be given...The "Coloured" community in Africa(Zim, & S. Africa for example) The Creole community in places like Louisianna. Entire population like those in Brazil(and other parts of South/Central America,  & the Carribean) that are obviousely filled with "multi racial" people but these people are still oppressed and exploited because their African heritage(also their indigenous heritage) is used as a means to keep the elitist white supremacist economic lines drawn. My darker skinned brothers and sister have it harder...but I/we by know means get by "perfectly"(without experiencing colour based oppression)...and never have.



Because of the way most 'multi-racial'/light skinned African people run from their African heritage and historically "claim", or are prouder of their "other", or European heritage...I don't think that this is a solution to race relations. If it was the solution, it would have already worked by now.  Most of the multiracial/light skinned African people reject, or don't deal with their African heritage...Most darker Black/Africans don't even deal with their African heritage outside of skin colour. (in the west at least)...It's not that we reject or don't acknowledge our "other" or Euro-white heritage...it's that the system cares very little about it accept when it benefits the "divide and conquor" techniques, and therefore promotes and fosters the continuation of the capitalist colour caste system.

The only way to establish better understanding between the races IMHO is to destroy the capitalist system that created and perpetuates the colour caste system in the first place. Blacks of all mixtures/hues have tried, to no avail, to be accepted by their white counterparts...It isn't "us", or lack of communication on our part that isethe problem...Look at all the integrationalism that has failed...IMHO Unified political nationalism based on common heritage(political, social, historical, and racial) and attatchment to a historical land mass(Africa)is the only way to make racism moot. Power only backs down in the face of a unified ideologically trained show of power..."communication" with whites can only be done when we are eating from the table equally. If we are just sitting at it and not eating from it...they have no reason to listen.



Why is that? Gman's story I don't know...but if he is living in Great Brittian it seems he would have a lot of communication with his Euro/White family...And if he doesn't...Does the muti-racial child really have the choice in that matter? Are we supposed to force ouselves on people that don't treat us as equals...that don't identify with us...don't really care about our struggles or even want to discuss them(even though sometimes they aren't conscious of this behavior)?



I don't think their is a denial of who I/we are genetically...that would be illogical and impossible...If anything the reverse is true in mass...the denial of our African heritage and it's significance in our social relations(the Vin Deisel/mixed folks.com thread started by you on this forum comes to mind)...as well as everyone running around the U.S. claiming they have "Indian" in their family...not to mention all the people in the rest of the western hemisphere who are phenotypically African/Black who are running around identifying as Spanish, or anything other than African...I think that under this system, historically ,socially, and politically we have always been a part of the African/Black and therfore the oppressed group. I think putting the load of race relations on your fellow oppressed brothers and sisters(although the oppression is not to the same degree) is taking the blame and the responsibility away from where it belongs... the capitalist elite and the Euro/Whites in power who established and perpetuated this colour caste system as well as still benefit from it.

Euro-White folks(and society) is who and what let me know at an early age...and every day after, that I am "Black"/African under this system...I don't deny relation to them, "they" (in mass) treat me/us as different and not as an equal  because I/we have African ancestry.  I'm not going to spend my life trying to change people who treat me as less than an equal...especially when often those people want me to aspire to change myself...thats up to them to reconcile that contradiction...I would rather fight the capitalism that created and fosters the colour caste system in the first place.

In refference to your earlier post...I don't think that mutli-racial people(especially in the west) need a whole lot of exposure or education on their Euro-White heritage. The Euro-White dominated educational, cultural, and social system has the entire planet learning European history, culture, and values.(not just people with some European heritage)  It is  always the African(and other people's) history that is neglected on a societal and personal level for everyone.

Gman,

I doubt growing up around European/Whites would have had you identify with them more. I grew up around a lot...they let me know I wasn't, and am still not considered one of "them"...

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On another note...I found this on another forum. I found it quite relavant to the discussion at hand....It was written by an African borm man living in Europe, in response to a European/White man who asked the question..."Why does a mixed person have to be automatically African?"

European culture is an Exclusive Collective Society, they exclude people. Africa is Inclusive Collective Society, they accept all their relations and refer to them as brothers. If I see a mixed person I regard him as a relation of mine and as equal any other brother of mine, in other words, mixed is just a sub collective within a super collective called Africa. Just as there are many ethnic groups in Africa, they are African because I choose to accept them as truly and equally brothers. It is up to them to accept that level of love and enlightenment which eliminates need for complex skin colour defining barriers, and it is up to all other races to accept their mixed people as their own, because everybody needs family, and when you are in a family you need to know that you are equal to every other member of that family. That is why Africans call mixed people Africans, they are family, and we need to demonstrate that.  (They are) the same as us, one with us.  The difference is not in the colour of skin to us, we don't see it, cause we know the body is just a vessel we see the spirit of the person. How this person chooses to relate with his other half is up to him, how his other half chooses to relate with him is up to them. We can not talk for them they have control over their own personal choices. We can only advice them based on our past and present experiences.

Europeans on the other hand have historically excluded mixed people, so most of your questions are not just questions in reality, they start with a falsehood statememt before stating the question: e.g. "Why does a mixed person have to be automatically African?" This statement is actually a statement by Europeans who invented the one drop rule, now generations later after all the damage has been done you try to twist it like Africans said it. Africans have demonstrated their cultural inclusivity. Europeans have demonstrated their cultural exclusivity

Multi-racial children are just that, multi-race. History reveals the co-mingling of humans (of various races) long before the concept of racial categorization. I feel these children have a right and need to explore both sides of their identity as they choose. It is up to the parents (and extended families who are able) to guide the child. I do not suggest that this be forced on them with a particular agenda, but should be handled, hopefully with co operation, by both parents as the desire arises and is made known by the child.  
 
I feel the suggestions that this be a tool to end racism are pure folly on the part of anyone clinging to such a faulty belief system. The individual who would make that suggestion is obviously not directly experienced, and so therefore is making wild assumptions in an attempt to avoid the responsibilities of each and every one of us to do our best daily to break down the Racist System. I would suggest anyone who makes such a suggestion, needs to spend some more time getting educated out of such ignorance. There is no longer any excuse not to.  
 
The day-to-day reaction to mixed children by society in general does have the impact on some to question there own hidden beliefs (and prejudices) regarding race. I have seen a multitude of such reactions. Generally Black people tend to be more tolerant and accepting of mixed children. Part of this I feel is due to familiarity with race mixing. After all, until recently, and in many instances even so still today, white people will shun and exclude fellow whites who have in their minds "betrayed their race."  I have witnessed some really strange ideas as well that mixed race children are somehow more attractive than their counter parts of other races. Anyone who subscribes to this idea in my mind really needs to dig deeper as there could be other issues they have failed to address.  
 
Personally I subscribe to the views in line with the management of this board regarding leadership in this Black Movement to be in the hands of capable Dark skinned Africans, in particular Dark skinned African women. However I would suggest that with careful and proper guidance, mixed children can have a function as a bridge to knowledge of both sides of the various race issues, although they will not be able to ever really experience the full impact of being Black or White, and yes, ultimately they, themselves will have to settle where they feel they fit best, hopefully totally comfortable relating to both sides of their identity. Their experiences will be unique and should be addressed accordingly. After all they too have a right to exist as full members of this human experience.

Many would like to believe their special white or light-skinned friends and family are somehow above being racist. This is understandable, as many will consider it disrespectful to their parents, other family members and friends to admit to others that their family and friends are racist, and are part of the oppressor group to some degree.

Usually people operate as if truth is a democracy, so they do not weigh arguments properly, but instead they play for popular support. This keeps most people personally dishonest. Anyhow, this is my personal take on some comments here.

This 'we are all oppressed' line is also the line that whites use, as many of them are also oppressed in the white-dominated system. This is because the White system is about materially enriching a few White males while all others are expendable. Many whites tend to play down the privileges they get in the system and use the line, "let us all get together to fight the system".  
 
Many mixed blacks of lighter complexion do not know how ugly that sounds, as they are not the ones on the receiving end of the worst in the system. They are not the ones who the system negatively impacts the most. Mixed blacks even play a part in the sustained oppression of dark-skinned blacks. Generally speaking I find that lighter-skinned mixed Blacks are very tolerant of token accommodations, as these usually materially benefit them first ahead of darker-skinned Blacks. So the line, "let us all get together to fight the system" that seems to play down the privileges and abuses from light-skinned ones, can be taken to mean that we should all get together to promote light-skinned people.
 
How people interpret language and speak are conditioned by their direct experiences, together with how they have informed themselves. If dark-skinned Blacks lack an awareness of the development of European thought together with the origins of what Europeans co-opted badly from Africa, they are not in a good position to express themselves in their own best interest, or give more enlightening interpretations to things. Everything they speak or do will be about sustaining White dominance. They will in effect be making moves which run counter to their own self-interest, and which further, are anti-black.    
 
Mixed-race people do understand the language of oppression, but many lack the deeper sustained experiences of the system to move with urgency. Generally speaking, they remain unable to feel and act from the urgency of the dark-skinned Black experience. Remember, I said that many Blacks also are not as sensitive because of their ignorance of the system, and of history in general. Many are unable to properly articulate their experiences.
 
Dark-skinned Blacks who are very sensitive and receptive have one or two things in common. They have deliberately studied the history and/or they have received very traumatic negative experiences in the system, which allowed their senses to be heightened. These Blacks are usually more sensitive to the movements in the system as well as to the motivations of people. Some can falsely feel that we have special problems instead of realizing that we may have special insights.
 
Whites and light-skinned mixed-race people are at a material advantage in terms of this corrupt Eurocentric system, but they have a natural sensitivity disadvantage.  
 
This is the gap that light-skinned ones do not perceive, and since this English language was not developed to express the feelings of Blacks in general, and to an even greater degree the feelings of more sensitive darker-skinned Blacks, we are left continually looking for better ways to express ourselves. Others do not get the depth of what we say. We must use the same words, but our understandings are not the same. Later I will give an example of this.  
 
Light-skinned ones who engage Black issues are usually more preoccupied with bridging the racial divide than with rooting out the problem, so the moves they find acceptable will usually be unacceptable to a more informed Black-skinned kinky-haired person. Also, since most people have a poor perception of self, they tend to promote their image as the ideal.  This can come over as just a token shade away from the white saviour complex. Generally speaking, from my personal experiences, I find informed light-skinned ones to be more into symbols than substance; they are more comfortable with language than with meaning. They confuse information with knowledge, and are unable to identify with legitimate experiences that do not conform to their assumptions. They are more into the show of doing than into real service.  
 
There is no getting around the fact that lighter-skinned people, for all of their good intentions, cannot be as directly sensitive to the system as informed darker-skinned Blacks, and by extension they are also less receptive to many forces. If they have integrity, they will always be aware of this and other truths when they see and hear them, and can use that to guide their conduct like all others.

PatriotWarrior,

You mentioned that you visited Zambia & Zimbabwe. When you have some time can you tell us some more about the Black people in those photos, and what is it like for ordinary Black people in Zimbabwe.

Regards,
Ayinde

Another great post, Ayinde. I concur with all the comments you posted here. Keep us learning more!!!

B.K

It is well known that multiracial people or "brown" people in countries like Brazil and South America have long prevented dark-skinned/ pure Black/Africans from achieving full equality. If you exam racism within these countries you will see that the historical acceptance of people of mixed heritage has prevented Negroid/Blacks from demanding and getting equality in those countries. Even in the US, in the West Indies and in Africa the loyalty and unity of mixed-race people with dark-skinned/ pure Black/Africans only produced the race/color hierarchy.

The rainbow that the Black race is today came from perhaps one of the greatest affront to us as Negroid/Black/Africans as the white racist oppressors wantonly raped our women during the times of slavery. As a result, the icon of beauty is now long straight hair, sharp noses and of course most societies in the world goes by those standards. We all know that inside our communities those mixed Black folks with light skin and European features are more preferred and are considered to be more attractive, even more intelligent than darker-skinned Blacks. If you don't believe me check out some Rap and R&B videos. How many times have you seen these Black dark skinned brothers serenading a woman of their hue? There are still Blacks who would disapprove of their children dating and/or marrying someone who has the complexion of smooth ebony. Skin color has a major say in who we choose to love, befriend or choose to hang with. Negroid/Black African people in all places are still feeling the affects of this status-quo in their mind.

The racial/class divisions in this world are clearly defined. Most people of dark skinned who have "Negroid/Black" features, appearance and genetic background are poor, and most middle class and wealthy are "caucasian/white" or "people with light skin" with European or Semitic features and genetic background. It is therefore intellectual dishonesty to dismiss that it's the pure Black/dark-skinned/Africans who are victims of the most egregious assault possible through the institution of white colonialism. Therefore, I maintain that all Black people will fight the racist and oppressive white system and their brainwashing societies more efficiently if multiracial/Black/militants tactics and organizations of Black liberation were also put into practice within their own white family units.



It seems I'm not the only one displaying ignorance in this topic. Any sane person who wants to fight racism sees the serious urgency of multiracial people who considered themselves "Black" or "African" to help smack white oppressive and extremist society by been increasingly vocal on racial issues more so in their own family units! Speaking as a white woman, I can see why your point is so subjective. You are less likely to be victimized by your white peer than a Black/African person. And since you and your kind are so fixated on denial, then you got every reason to claim ignorance on my Negroid/Black/African part.

You've pointed out the need of each and every one of us to take responsibility to break down the Racist System, well THINK that each time as a dark-skinned/pure Black/African person start talking about the need for institutions and images beneficial for Black people to a white person, most of the time this white person challenges and condemn the attitude and actions of the dark-skinned/pure Black/African one. Then, multiracial and multiethnic Black/militants ought to challenge their own white brothers, white mothers or white fathers! After all, the white parents achieved to infiltrate our people, have sexual intercourses and breed multiracial children with them. I don't see why the white parents of mixed-race offspring wouldn't be interested in supporting the sincere demands raised by their healthy children and/or by their Black/African sexual partners.

Don't you see how it is important for children of mixed heritage to know every one of their folks and cultures? WHY multiracial Blacks should avoid talking about racial issues within their own families and by doing so perhaps taking the blame away from their own weakness? Multiracial Black militants cannot accurately fight racism by just focusing on Black people. They have to cross their other racial/ethnic heritage committed to gain equity and justice for the dark-skinned/pure Black/African people.

B.K

This statement is assuming that the white family members aren't overtly racist...The white fanmily memebers aren't above being racist...overtly and subconsciousely.They often ARE racist and therfore the child doesn't have a communication line open whith the white family members...and the child often HAS also criticized and confronted them for this behavior. The truth, IMHO, is never disrespectful. Speaking from personal experience...I have very little contact with the white side of my family because they are racist and offensive. They would never think/admit they are racist and offensive, but they are....Just like most white people with their institutionalized and systematic belief systems are racist even if it is not overt. Why would I subject myself to that on a consistant basis? Personaly, I get enough of that from white folks in the outside world...I don't look past racism with my "white" side of the family...I confront it head on, which doesn't make for the most pleasant conversation(of course) and therefore distance is the only solution..They aren't "comfortable" around me because they know I will correct and fight with them on any behavior or belief systems they espouse that even hints towards overt or subconcious racism. If it has already been confronted, and the individualsm don't change their behavior, Why would the Black child continue to try to constantly fight?  The only thing I feel I can, and should be worrying changing is the systematic racism...Criminals aren't made, they are created by society. The only way to not develop criminals is to change society. I feel the same way about racism...Society's structure must change and that must be done by the people who are the victims of the racism...The slave can only free themselves. Making racism moot by having a strong, unified, and liberated Africa will do much more than me constantly and repeatedly trying to change the mind of individuals...I hate to sound cold hearted about it. But I see the whites in my family as the majority of other white people behaviorally....firmly entrenched in the white global superiority system. I always attack racism when confronted with it, within and outside of the family....That is why I am saying it is not feasable to expect the multi-racial/Black children to actually change the hearts and minds of racist family members...I tried it...I also see it as a secondary contradiction...and when the primary contradiction is handled(a unified Africa and liberated African people globally, and capitalism is destroyed)...it will be minimized, elliminated, or at the least, made moot by internal national stregth.



I must disagree with this...Whites are not opressed ...They are exploited because they are not the elites. Blacks and all other people of colour are oppressed and exploited . Whites who claim to be oprressed are full of it, or at the least, are confusing exploitation with oppression...The white superiority system doesn't function that way.  Their labour is exploited because they are part of the masses...the workers...the lower economic classes...But we live in a racial system and class system...Their class may be exploited but they are not oppressed under the racial/colour caste system. Oppression and exploitation are intertwined, but are not identical...just like race and class are intertwined and overlap, but are not identical. To lump my statement about us(people of colour)  being oppressed with whites who say falsely that they are oppressed (which means they are denying their advantage over EVERYONE else) is not fair.  I know, and have stated this oppression is to varying degrees depending on amount of melanin...those with the most melanin or darkest complexions suffering the worst...I fight vigorousely against this. I'm aware of the fact that I also have an advantage in this messed up society because I have lighter skin...that's the nature of the colour caste system, and that is one of the reasons why I advocate the destruction of this system. 
 

It is true that (white) Europeans rarely question multiracial blacks –- or anyone multiracial -- about their ethnicity (perhaps because they’re simply embarrassed to find out how “white” they also are). It is for such categorization (perhaps) that many multiracial children easily end up lacking a sense of “belonging” in their lives, even if many dark-skinned Afrikans/blacks also face this “identity crisis” … and, in some severe cases, I think even more than some multiracial blacks do.

As I said, I do not think it is for me to have my daughter consider herself “blacker” ( or “lighter”), but I think I can direct her to follow the path I deem best for her, given the circumstances in which she lives (at a given time). But my own efforts are also limited in the sense that they are borne chiefly out of my own bygone experiences (in boyhood etc), in other environments etc, some of which wouldn’t even apply to the current condition. I won’t choose for her to think as if she were a dark-skinned Afrikan, but I think I can introduce her Afrikan side to her, as any (thinking) parent in my situation would do. The European/German influence in my daughter’s life is there … and everywhere, … but I won’t be the one to lay down rules against any European influences; she has to be taught to act or react to her experiences accordingly, as they would demand.

She can be called or call herself “black”, but she really is half-German; there’s no denying that, but it will be for her to balance out her racial heritages in a sensible way. She will have to sort that out for herself independently (through the near future) –- even with the help of both her parents.



[Whatever context]: I doubt if there are many mixed Blacks who’ve been distanced enough from their European part, and not even the Afrikans: … because reality has shown that most people, including the black Afrikans themselves, have religiously clung to everything about the West: the fastest way to social progress. “Life!” (as they call it). Everything else is supposed to be secondary, including their own racial identity. It still happens …

Nevertheless, I don’t think really distancing anyone from their racial heritage, even if only in part, would do anyone any good. I think good (interracial) parents would “strike a balance” in doing that, but the only “danger” in it is such parents’ own conception of the word “balance”. Many times, it happens that multiracial (black-white) children discard their Afrikan identity more comfortably than their European one, for the European one, which has some telling to do: We still live in a white-centred, self-reflecting system.

~~~~~~~~~~

(http://www.african-poet.com/images/IMAG0107.jpg)

~~~~~~~~~~

TO AYINDE:

There was a lot happening in Zimbabwe, but one thing about Afrika is that, with places like Zimbabwe, you won’t see all the “action” you heard in the news at once, because it’s mostly incidental. Apart from a few minor incidents of internal disorder (like corruption scandals  currently being trailed by the Zimbabwean government, as the story goes …), it was relatively calm in Zimbabwe when I was there. There has been a kind of “black calm” in Zimbabwe through these months, and one good thing I noticed is that there is a lot of working together with neighbouring countries.

I had the feeling that the on-going land reforms are still being pushed through to the masses, for whom the cost of living in Zimbabwe has been climbing steadily … But I think to most people in rural areas, life is more or less the same as it used to be before the land-redistribution program (1999). Some urban Zimbabweans do not care about Mugabe, but their non-support for Mugabe is more often due to the bad shape of the economy than for the famous land confiscations from whites. The “confiscations” scored indelible points for Mugabe actually! Watching TV in Zimbabwe and Zambia, I even had the feeling that many Afrikans have learned something positive from the debris fall-out in the British post-colonial fiasco in Zimbabwe.

The people on the pictures I posted are strangers (people I just met and asked to photograph) and family members (a male cousin, female cousins, nieces, a nephew, a sister) etc. The school my daughter visited in Lusaka is also attended by 2 nieces, her cousins. A cousin of mine works for “African Queen” as a tourist guide and showed us round the falls. A loved cousin of mine escorted us from Lusaka to Livingstone, to the Falls and past the border (then back to Lusaka) … All in all, I took close to 1,600 pics{!!} on my way through those places from here, and the ones I posted were more or less randomly selected. I could write much about a relative, a brother or sister.

~~~~~~~~~~

I liked the contents of this post, regarding this discussion:










This is the gap that light-skinned ones do not perceive …

Kelani and Oshun_ Auset:

You both are misinterpreting Kristine. Kristine is actually agreeing. She is agreeing that multi-racial children need to explore both sides of their heritage. If you go over the paragraph the Kelani quoted as well as kristine's post you will see what i mean:



The paragraph was in reference to a claim by a white person on the other board that race mixing is a great tool to break down racism, and it is that claim she is calling ignorance.

I saw the misunderstanding with Kristine's post. Some of us are right to be distrustful of whites/light-skinned ones, so the mix-up is understandable. In my view Kristine also made good points.

Oshun_ Auset,

It is not my intention to condemn you, your insights and experiences, so I am not pressing the points I made.

PatriotWarrior,

I really like the fact that you did capture much in words and photos from the trip, and you took the time to share it. I am grateful.

Thank you.

My apologies Kristine, I completely mis-interpreted your statement and thought it was being directed towards what Kelani was saying. I know of the "other" board thread and postes you arereferring to....and I must agree with your statement in referrence to that persons comments.

I understood Kristine statement perfectly. She speaks as being "ignorant" the idea and programs of using mixed Blacks individuals for our political struggle against racism and neo-colonialism within their own white family units. I can read with objectivity I'm not an imbecile. Besides, she should dialogue, defend herself if she can.

B.K

I agree with you Oshun Auset. You feel you can't acknowledge the white in you because you have suffered at the hands of your white relatives... But, your personal experience is an anecdotal evidence. You have to look at trends; you have to look at large sample. It's established fact that on a daily basis the mass media use the term "Back/African" for looking mixed girls like Halle Berry, Michael Michelle or even Mariah Carey. More and more people nowadays who classify themselves "African" are very light skinned even white looking! They keep feeling themselves this way through marriage and selective breeding (aka selecting dark-skinned Blacks with whom they will darken their bloodline). What these people are doing is increasing the inequality between races and passing down a culture of light-skinned Blacks favoritism. We all know that the "Negroid" Blacks race is described as Blacks or brown in color with broad noses, thick lips and kinky hair. Do you really consider children or adults of a mixed and interracial heritage ranging from "white" to "yellow" of color "Blacks"?

Further, how we the pure Black/Africans could believe in ourselves, and number one, create lifestyles that our ancestors expect from us if multiracial or biracial individuals with very light skin emphasizes being "Black/African" more than us? Aren't we the dark-skinned/pure Black Africans beautiful? Aren't our voices interesting? Do we deserve to control our own images? YES, YES, and YES. I am willingly to bet, the majority of mixed-raced Blacks militants who try to express excess pride in '"Blackness" don't even know they are actually taking away the Blacks with broad noses, thick lips and kinky hair attention within the Blacks community. And of the comments that I am observing from Patriot Warrior and Kristine in this thread, the parents of multiracial children are doing the same.. We could all blame the horrible outcome of European brainwashing among Blacks and interracial or biracial people from slavery and colonization, but the fact remains the mixed/light-skinned/whites still feel like they are better than the Blacks dark skinned Blacks even nowadays beyond the white slavery/colonial machinery. We have to improve these awful conditions before it's too late for the pure Black/African people!

If at the present time the mixed people who accept the Blacks side are not embarrassing themselves to fight the criminality, extremism, stupidity in their white families, which is the most important institution in white communities, they are doing a damn thing for Black/African people. Perhaps I am being "ignorant" or a bit harsh promoting these ideas and programs. But, as Black militants we all have to carry out a many sided struggle to smash the oppressor's power over our lives to create a new center of power for Black/African people. For the mixed Blacks individuals who are not disgusted by their white relatives, their white family units should serve as the smallest unit for our political, cultural, philosophical and social struggle.  

B.K

Quote from Kristine:  
 
Personally I subscribe to the views in line with the management of this board regarding leadership in this Black Movement to be in the hands of capable Dark skinned Africans, in particular Dark skinned African women. However I would suggest that with careful and proper guidance, mixed children can have a function as a bridge to knowledge of both sides of the various race issues, although they will not be able to ever really experience the full impact of being Black or White, and yes, ultimately they, themselves will have to settle where they feel they fit best, hopefully totally comfortable relating to both sides of their identity. Their experiences will be unique and should be addressed accordingly. After all they too have a right to exist as full members of this human experience.

There's a lot to discuss and respond to on this thread, I'll just start with this today since my time is limited.
I'm not trying to jump down your throat here, Kristine, but there is something I find offensive about this statement. Perhaps it's a matter of wording rather than the concept behind it, but the idea that "with careful and proper guidance" I can "have a function" (that's what I've been yearning for all my life, a 'function'), and guess what that function is, ah yes, "a bridge" to "knowledge of both sides of the race issue"... that all rubs me the wrong way. I think you could see how the wording would rub someone the wrong way if you think about it. I have a 'function' like a cog in a machine but I will only work well 'with careful and proper guidance', like if someone (presumably my parents) has read the operators' manual properly.
To I, my 'function' is to live this life I was given by the Most I to the fullest, to hone those talents and abilities that I have and to acquire new ones, and to get in where I fit in in the struggle for a more just world, for all people and all life forms, but in particular for Black people, a collective with whom I identify, because I am part of that collective.
I would question whether I will 'never know the full impact of being Black or white'. I will never know the full impact of being white that's for sure, and I will never know the full impact of being darker-skinned Black. However there are millions of Black people who are my color both of whose parents are Black (darker-skinned Black in some cases). No one can look at me and know that one of my parents is white. They might guess, but actually more often people are surprised when I tell them that my father is white. So, do none of these Black people who are my color, many of whom have no memory of any distant white (usually rapist) relatives down the family tree, know 'the full impact of being Black'? I suppose it depends how you define 'Black'. Generally speaking, I agree with Ayinde and others that the darker-skinned you are, the worse treatment you are liable to get. But there are a great many people of my color who have certainly experienced 'the full impact' of generations of extreme poverty, spending more time in jail than in the streets, not being able to get a decent job, and being shot in the back by police officers. And there are some darker-skinned Black people from more privileged backgrounds who have not experienced the full impact of these things. Was Malcolm X (who was more or less my color) unable to experience the 'full impact of being Black'? (Although on the other side of the coin, I could ask the question, could there have been some other spokesperson for Black rights at the time who was as eloquent, fiery and engaging a speaker and activist as Malcolm, but who wouldn't get as much attention from the masses of Black people because he was too dark-skinned, or she was the wrong gender?)
To expand a little more on my personal story: I was born in the London Borough of Hackney, one of the most multi-racial/multi-lingual/multi-everything places on the planet, and lived there and in North London til I was 6, a period of which I have only vague recollections none of which specifically involve race, although looking back I could see how, for example, a fight I got into in the school playground could have been racially motivated. I've always lived with both my parents until I struck out on my own at the age of 17. When I was 6 we moved to Georgetown, Guyana, where white people are a small minority, and non-'Puhtugee' white people an even smaller one. ('Puhtugee' Guyanese are white, descendants of indentured servants from Madeira, and experienced most of the benefits and privileges of being white under British colonialism, but being Guyanese and having had many of their privileges stripped away after independence, they are put in a different category than foreigners who are 'whitey' while they are 'puhtugee').
Anyway my dad was one of the few 'whitey' around at the time. Apart from one expatriate British couple we were friendly with (they were anthropologists), he was pretty much the only 'whitey' around me in those days. Looking back, I don't think I thought that much about race in those days. I hung out with whoever, I had my first sweaty-palms crushes on Melanie Griffith and Patricia Persaud simultaneously, I don't even recall any of the African/Indian tension that Guyana is known for manifesting itself among us kids. But come to think of it my core clique of friends was mostly African (one Indian kid) and mostly towards the lighter end of the skin spectrum (one black-skinned kid). Was this just coincidence, or was I unconsciously gravitating to the people whom some subliminal message in the society said were 'my' kind of people who I was supposed to hang out with? I couldn't say.
I lived a middle-class existence in Guyana, which meant we had a comfortable house that wasn't falling apart, we could afford a telephone, never went the least bit hungry although we hardly had sumptuous meals, and hired a maid to come in a few times a week, as all middle-class Guyanese households are expected to do. This was certainly a more privileged existence than that led by most Guyanese, but the reason we were in the middle-class category had nothing to do with my dad who made a very meager living as a teacher, it had to do with my mum's working for the government, which in turn had to do with her winning the Guyana Scholarship and getting sent to UWI in Jamaica, and later going to graduate school in London and beginning to work her way up the ranks of Guyana's nascent diplomatic service. My mum grew up very poor, but her mum came from a middle-class Guyanese line, she was one of the first batch of Black professionals (teacher) in Guyana, and no doubt her being educated and an educator contributed to my mum's winning the scholarship. But I digress.
The point was, the privileges we enjoyed were not spectacular. There were many black-skinned Guyanese who lived the same kind of lifestyle, and there were few people of any color who lived a more privileged lifestyle, i.e. had a TV (an expensive luxury in those days, requiring your own satellite dish), a generator to counteract the daily (sometimes 24-hour-long) blackouts, running water (it was buckets for us) etc. While I am not going to sing the praises of Forbes Burnham's often corrupt and brutal regime, one thing about those days was that there really wasn't that huge of a wealth/privilege gap between Guyanese. Don't get me wrong, there was a gap, but it was like, most people were really really poor, and then some people like my family were just above the poverty line, and people with real luxuries were few and far between. Neither being 'multiracial' nor having a mother who worked for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs conferred any special privileges above anyone else in that vague middle-class category. It certainly didn't stop me from being called out in front of thousands of people during the 'Mass Games' and getting caned many times on the legs, which is another story.
Well I'm really blabbering on here. Ah well. At age 13 due to my mum's job we moved to Venezuela where I attended an American-run school, this was my first real encounter with crackers (as opposed to people who just happened to be white). It was a good education. I could no longer afford the luxury of being racially neutral, or not thinking about race. I was informed in no uncertain terms of what I was; a 'nigger'. 'Nigger, nigger, nigger'. I'm not exagerrating when I say that not a single day went by in my first couple years at that school that I wasn't called that word. Well maybe a day might go by but they'd certainly call me it the next day! When I was approaching 16 and getting a little bigger and starting to work out and ting, people laid off a bit because they could sense I would fight back now, but the vibes were still there. To this day I despise those crackers to the bottom of my being. I tell you no lie, if I was to run into some of those people today, I would not even say a word, I would walk right up and punch them full in the face as hard as I could, making sure my ring connected with the bridge of their nose.
Well after that I went to amerikkka to attend college and sort of got stuck there on and off for the next ten years. After spending a couple years around mainly a different kind of white people in Portland Oregon (mostly rich and privileged like the oilmen's children I went to school with in venezuela, but very 'liberal' and 'open-minded' and 'non-racist'... a few of whom are still my good friends but most of whom were faker than a three-dollar bill), I took the wrong bus by mistake one day and discovered that there was a Black community in Portland (I'd had no idea). I was being called 'nigga' with a 'ga' at the end now, which I found I not only vastly preferred to the 'er' version, I also preferred it to the drawled 'Bra' of my Northern Lights-aroma'd, blonde dreadlocked acquaintances in college. I couldn't say I felt initially 'at home' in 'the hood'- Guyana was probably the last place I felt fully 'at home' in, everywhere else I seemed to be always a bit of an outsider- but as I visited there more and more often, and eventually moved there, I realized that I sure felt more comfortable there than around my fellow collegians. And to this day, I'll always prefer to live in an area that is at least 50% or so Black, if I have any choice at all. And that's all I have time for today, so I'll wrap up these ramblings without even coming to any specific conclusion... make of them what you will... later I'll address more of the specific points that were raised on this thread.

Bantu:
I ain sure is wah you trying to say here. On the one hand, you say that if I, as a mixed/lighter-skinned person (actually your color or just slightly lighter, to judge from your photograph)... if I end up having youths with a dark-skinned woman, it's like I'm 'diluting' her bloodline or something... and if I end up having youths with a lighter-skinned Black woman or woman with African descent or whatever you want to call her (cos I for damn sure ain't gone have no youths with no white woman) then I am perpetuating a class of privileged lighter-skinned Black people or yellowy-brown people or whatever you want to call us. Well what am I supposed to do, have a vasectomy, become a monk or something?
Forgive me if I misinterpreting what you were saying but that's what it sounded like to me!
I for one don't have many problems with any of the white side of my family that I'm close to, I've discussed/argued a couple things with my dad and believe me if I think he still manifesting any subliminal racist behaviors or thoughts, his being my dad will not stop me from challenging him in the least. Maybe my grandparents might have some subconscious racist beliefs but they are so minor, and they are so old, that it's hardly worth belaboring them about it. I mean they only gone be here a few more years. As far as people whose white side family have more conscious or pervasive racist beliefs, what makes you think that white side of the family would listen to them, any more than to any other black or brown person? If you think they would listen just cos they got a blood connection, then you don't overs how totally pervasive and poisonous white racism is, maybe they might hate you more because you 'messed up' their family with a splash of black or brown!
I am all for acknowledging those privileges I do have as a lighter-skinned/mixed person, and for supporting the struggle of the most downpressed among us who do tend to be the darker-skinned among us, no argument there. But with that post, it seems like you painting people like me into a corner, we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't!
Black people came in many shades and many different features even before the white man dem arrived, the KhoiSan look different than the Bantu who look different from the Mbuti who look different from the Masai, why can't we all acknowledge ourselves as Black, or as African if you prefer, you mean to say, because I describe myself as Black, it is somehow taking away from you describing yourself as Black? Is you describing yourself as Black then taking away from a black black black skinned Nubian describing him/herself as Black? I ain't trying to get your goat here, but I really don't get what you trying to say in that post. Would you prefer if Halle Berry claimed herself as white or refused to acknowledge herself as black and only claimed 'multiracial' like Tiger Woods? Trust, if Tiger Woods had gone to the same school with me, no one would be calling him a 'damn good for nothing cablinasian' any more than people would be calling me a 'god-damned mixie', we'd both be called NIGGER... now if I say I rather mingle with, deal with, marry and raise youths with the people who are also called NIGGERS rather than the people calling us NIGGERS, I'm somehow doing damage to the Black cause? I just don't see that, anyway please correct me if I misinterpreted you, or enlighten me further as to what you meant.

Kelani’s comment here hit the nail on the head but I doubt if many here will understand the magnitude of her point:
 
 
   
What struck me while looking at advertisements here at home (Trinidad) was the blatant pushing of a multi-racial agenda as the dominant aesthetic for Trinidadianess. The acceptable black media image is almost always the light-skinned or brown-skinned, curly haired look, the type that shows some recent mixing even though the skin may be brown. While Trinidad does have many races, and has had its share of race mixing, the deliberate image put across is that Trinidad is made up of this brown skin curly hair lighter-skinned population as a means of showing some cosmetic idea of racial harmony, and a more shaded idea of beauty to mask the white direction of their projection. Of course, ‘racial harmony’ and ‘national unity’ often mean that the experiences and images of the exploited must be hushed up to make way for a ‘hunki dori’ image that sells. However the reality is just the opposite. When you look at a cross section of the population, what you see is mainly dark-skinned African people and dark-skinned Indian people. The type of people that is reflected in the media as ‘black people’ is quite small by comparison.    
   
This illustrates part of a deeper problem that Kelani highlighted- the appropriation of blackness (in the specific case I cited, Trinidadianness) to fit an acceptable light-skinned media image.  It is an alarming spiral. To be media accepted is to be mixed, to be Trinidadian is to be mixed, and in effect, to be black (accepted black) is to be … mixed. The real black people are invisible; the black image is appropriated by the mixed image. Her words tie right into this scenario. Mixed people along with whites who have more privileges in the system over blacks can define and “refine” blackness in their own images.    
   
This is not to say that people of mixed ancestry cannot define themselves as they wish, and have a full right to claim both sides of their ancestry. Many do see themselves as ‘black’, although often they would like nothing better than to distance themselves from the dark-skinned kinky-hair Africans whom they try so hard to erase - the type of dark-skinned kinky-hair Africans that Kelani and Ayinde speak about, the ones that mostly came on slave ships, and the ones who got lynched.  
 
Because the system values the voices of the lighter ones more than those of the dark-skinned kinky-hair Africans, they get to be the ones that are the standard, the definers, and negate the voices, experiences and images of the blacker ones.  
 
More often that not, light-skinned ones can be viewed as part of the group that suppresses dark-skinned kinky-hair Black voices, by their presence in certain quarters. The fact that light-skinned ones do not get these points also demonstrates the earlier points made about sensitivity.  
 
As a dark-skinned kinky haired African myself I think I am paying respect to the other dark-skinned Blacks in the photos. Patriot Warrior posted pictures of beautiful black people and all many here have been showcasing is the defensives of mixed-race ones trying to show how they fit in. Maybe some have forgotten the dark-skinned Black children in the photos.  
 
Even trying to assess Kelani's color by just one photo on the site is to miss the fact that she does have an album on the site, and the pictures show more of her dark-skinned tone and not the flash light altered one in the photo to which you are referring. But I don’t think it is necessary to try to measure color with her to see the truth in the argument that was presented.

It is the same here. Light skinned people are favored by the racist white superiority structured corporate owned media globally. It was also like that when I went to Africa. It is disturbing enough to pick up a magazine or watch a video and see only/majority light skinned/mixed race people being shown. But when I saw it on billboards and tv in Africa(even though i expected it becauseof colonialism and American cultural imperialism) I was floored. But that is the global effects of capitalism, imperialism, and colinization. That is why this SYSTEM must go. The actual light skinned people being picked by the corporations do not have control over their use as the preffered appearance. Of course they could always choose to decline modelling/acting and the like...but that is not likely. The only way to stop this unfair representation of the masses of African people is by attacking the system that promotes it.  Otherwise we could notice it ,and complain about it ,and point it ou,t and be disgusted by it all day....but it will just continue.
   


What mixed/light skinned blacks actually own the companies and media to control this image? I think that most mixed/light skined Blacks are puppets of the elites who push white dominance...as you have pointed out. Devide and conquor...many mixed/light skiined Blacks fall for this tactic and set themselves up in communities historically as a middle or advantaged class and take what economic gain they can get. I haven't heard the people posting on this site coming from that direction though...Even most of the white folks on this site talk about te white superiority system under capitalism being unfair...  
   


You seem to not have noticed, or at the least you do not acknowledge, that I also mentioned the masses of African people are dark skinned and kinky haired and that is the image that should be promoted....Not just because that is the masses of African people globally, but because that is the image and they are the people that are the most oppressed and underrepresented under this system.  
 


Why are you insisting I do not understand this?...When my posts obviousely show evidence to the contrary. I must assume you are directing this towards one if not both of us , Gman or I...because we are the only 2 light skinned/mixed race people who posted on this thread that identified as such...I personally WANT this false image to stop. So does Gman from what I have read. I don't want to be the face of what Africans are depicted as...That image is illogical and just plain false. When I open a magazine and watch TV or look at advertisements all around me, contrary to popular belief, it disgusts me to see the image of light skinned and curley haired people everywhere as though that is what the majority of African/Black people look like, or more important, what s promoted that we should look like. That is a distructive and racist image force fed to us by a white superitority capitalist system and unfortunately propogated and accepted by fellow Blacks and usually the light skinned ones who are benefitting and promoted by such images.(I know I am in the minority with people that look like me on this topic...but that does not mean that I don't hold it as an opinion or am unaware of it) I don't understand why you Yan or Kelani would think that it isn't understood. IMHO only a complete idiot or a blindman wouldn't notice this. So I find it insulting that I am being told, even though I have demonstrated to the contrary by the majority of my posts, that I do get it. Please explain why this is being insisted upon? 
 


Fist off, I noticed that the mixed child looked EXACTLY like me as a child...I If you saw a child that looked exactly like you in someone elses photos, would you not mention this as a fact? It shocked me as I stated in my post...It was creepy...that is the ONLY reason I commented on the physical appearance of anyone in the photos.

Secondly, if you have beef that the topic of discussion in this thread diverted to "mixed race" issues...Then you should be irritated that Kelani asked for our opinions. If someone I personally know asks my opinion on such a subject I am going to answer. There are beautiful people in all of those pictures...Nobody forgot that. The subject strayed because of the questions being asked. If you look through the posts of any other thread I have posted on...You will see that I have NEVER given more attention to any subject because of a light skinned or mixed race biggotry...In fact...most of my concern is of politics, religion, and the African masses(Which are Black and Kinky haired). I don't even remeber a thread coming up where I had to mention that I was of partial European ancestry...because it is not, and should not be anyones focus. In fact I remember quite frequently chastising others in posts for not keeping our eyes on the "Aim"...Africa. As a Pan-Africanist I couldn't do anything but this.



The problem I have with Kelani's post is that Kelani is preeching to the choir. Otherwise I agree with the observations made. I personally know her, and am friends with her.  She knows I don't subscribe to or support, and am actually very vocally against the light skinned image being portrayed in the coporate run media...But that is the part of argument I have...It is corporate run and owned...In other words the White Elite control the images shoved down our throat...if they don't approve of it...and in many cases come up with it in the first place...to serve their own diabolical purposes...so they can exploit people easier...We wouldn't see it. Very few black companies control the images being portrayed....and most that are feel they have to promote the same values as the capitalist system...in other words, they think they have to reinforce the capitalist color caste system. Some images have improved showing darker skinned kinky haired women and men(thank God)...but most haven't, and aren't gong to unless African people...the masses...rise up agaist the system as a unified and ideologically trained force. The SYSTEM is to blame...and it is controlled by the few...the elites. If I am a vocal communitee activist and constantly complain about the images forced on us all, what else can I do? I don't have some special audience with the white corporate elite where they listen to me anymore that any other person of colour because I am "half-white" or light skinned!  I'm just as powerless as anyone else outside of my personal actions and organizational political activites. I speak to other light skinned/mixed race people and anyone else who promotes the Euro-centric standard of beauty and tell them this is wrong. I also don't "shine a light" on myself as the voice of African people because I know I don't look like the masses of the Black/African opressed...Nor should the masses aspire to look like the Eurocentric image forced on us all...But what else can anyone do to try to stop the propogation of this image, and all the other psychological and physical warfare launched by this system on African people, but try to organize against this system that does this to us all?  

Obviously it is an issue some of us think is important, just like the many issues we address.    
   
There is no reason for this defensiveness, especially if you claim to be different. You have taken points that were made in a general manner and responded as if they were directed at you.  
   
You said:  
 
“The problem I have with Kelani's post is that Kelani is preaching to the choir. Otherwise I agree with the observations made.”    
   
Why have a problem if you agree? Why not let it go so that others who may not be aware of the issues can look at it?  
 
You did say:  
 
“The behavior of the majority of people that have my phenotypical appearance has been historically appalling and needs such criticism.”

How can I express 'excess pride' in being African? Am I supposed to be only so proud to be African, and no more?
OK if you got a problem with me defining myself as 'Black' since I am not Black-skinned, fine then, I will define myself as 'brown' or what have you, a brown african descent nigga 'B.A.D.N.', it sounds better than 'Cablinasian'.
Yan that is an interesting point you made about the ads and ting though, I see what you mean there, or look at hip hop videos, is pure light-skin women in there, but like Oshun Auset pointed out, it's not like the ad companies or MTV are controlled by lighter-skinned black/brown people (at least not in Amerikkka, t&t maybe), they controlled by white people.
I am not the one that particularly 'emphasized' my African heritage, white folks emphasized my African heritage by calling me a nigger, stopping and searching me on the street, etc. etc. So what, I'm supposed to live in denial of that and gwaan like I'm not a light-skinned black man, I'm some other category, a mix who owes allegiance equally to black and to welsh or something, I ain't feeling that, when I see a Black person of any shade anywhere I deh round the world, I seeing that person as my brother or sister til they prove otherwise, and more times I am treated as a brother by black people, you think I could go round anywhere in the world and hail up everyone of welsh descent and gwaan like dem all me bruddaz and sistaz, come on now.
We all in the 'Black' category, to me, because we share certain experiences, now we don't all share the same experiences, true that my experience as a lighter-skinned black man will be a bit different and GENERALLY SPEAKING less harsh than if I was Black-skinned, just as people's experiences will be different based on their gender, culture, sexuality, ability/disabillity, mental illness or so-called 'sanity', or what have you. But in my opinion we got enough of the same similar experiences for us all to be contained under the label 'Black', we have some things in common, primarily, crackers want to keep us down and use us. Part of this using us, will involve using us against one another, which is often based on skin shade, no doubt, I know that, I grew up in the caribbean, I lived in amerikkka, people are obsessed with the blasted shade of people skin and yeah people are brainwashed to believe that lighter is better. But I can't help that and I refuse to bite my tongue, sit back in the sidelines, not voice an opinion, or whatever, for fear that I might take away from some darker-skinned person expressing that opinion. Fuhchrissake if we got the same opinion, let's just express the same opinion, without worrying about who is making who look bad or look less militant or something, my opinion is like me baiz dead prez paraphrase Peter Tosh "I'M AN AFRICAN, AND I KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING" and like Anthony B says "FIYA BURN WHITE SUPREMACY, QUEEN A INGLAN POPE A ROME AND NAZI GERMANY", those are my opinions, more than opinions really to me, why can't I and a black black-skinned person both shout out these things, these things are true regardless of what degree of melanin deh in me skin.
Maybe I ain't been very coherent or cogent or addressed all the points here, if I missing somebody's point forgive me, I don't really sit down to write analytical essays when I type on here, I just express what is on my mind at any given time, well, I await feedback, respects to all.

It is always important to be very clear on where you stand in the system as it is and to be continually aware of how you are seen, what privileges you may have and how your actions may affect others that do not have those privileges. There is much humility there too, in being able to stand back and check your self.  
 
It is one thing to think that you have all the information, to think that you are right in your points and that you do not have these issues, but it is not always about that.  It is also about how you, with all these possible privileges, may be seen by the same ones whose cause you are so trying to fight; how to them you may be just as bad as the ‘enemy’ that we all acknowledge, how to them, just by virtue of being alive, you manifest everything that they have been denied and are given all the benefits that they will never see. And I am not just talking about materially as in financially etc but in terms of how you are seen, and how you look. You reflect the image that denies them visibility.  
 
Gman says,  
“I can't help that and I refuse to bite my tongue, sit back in the sidelines, not voice an opinion, or whatever, for fear that I might take away from some darker-skinned person expressing that opinion.”  
 
And  
 
“Why can't I and a black black-skinned person both shout out these things, these things are true regardless of what degree of melanin deh in me skin.”  
 
But you see that this is the issue. It should be exactly the opposite. When you stand ‘higher’ in this system you HAVE to be constantly aware of if you may be taking from a blacker one who is more deserving, if you are distracting from them making their views known, and to have enough integrity and humility to realize that even if you may feel you have it or may be articulate about certain issues, that the depth of that persons experience is often bigger than the words you may have. You should always be aware of how and when and where there may be a blacker one right there who is made invisible in the system by your light skinned presence.  And that is not a matter of pity or anything nasty like that. It is simply respect. What you do about it is your call.
 
To me, Privilege + Being a little better informed = Constant Vigilance  
People should be constantly aware of how they benefit, and how they may be contributing to the corrupt system they benefit from.  
 
This is not just a big nameless, faceless system. It is people with these poor attitudes that create and contribute to it. People are just as much creators of the system as the system creates the people. We should all accept personal responsibility while challenging the system. To say, well we don’t own the businesses, we don’t own the corporations etc is a cop out, because it is peoples’ attitudes that shape and contribute to so many of these things. White people especially females can make similar arguments, but that does not stop us from pointing out how they benefit from the system, and to a large degree support it.  
 
You said, “OK if you got a problem with me defining myself as 'Black'”  

I certainly have no problem with anyone calling themselves anything they wish. I am explaining one thing and it is being interpreted differently. I am certainly not telling anyone what to do; I am simply analyzing the situation.

You said : “We all in the 'Black' category, to me, because we share certain experiences, now we don't all share the same experiences, true that my experience as a lighter-skinned black man will be a bit different and GENERALLY SPEAKING less harsh than if I was Black-skinned, just as people's experiences will be different based on their gender, culture, sexuality, ability/disabillity, mental illness or so-called 'sanity', or what have you.”

Being lighter-skinned or darker-skinned cannot simply be placed in a separate category like you did there, as there are light-skinned and darker-skinned people in all those categories, and how they are treated based on conditioned assumptions is the issue.  
 
At the end of the day all change must come from people, from within themselves. That is why we always begin with examining attitudes and doing the necessary work to refine characters and not go blowing up multi million dollar corporations. That is in itself why so many revolutions fail. People hardly ever stop to look at themselves while correctly blaming “the system”. It is comfortable I suppose to blame others, and to blame nameless faceless entities; much more so than the hell of realizing that the essence of the system stares right back at you from the mirror.

Yan,

My "defensiveness" came about from these comments being made in direct response to my posts. Some things on here from you, and moreso Kelani were general statements...others were specifically directed to gman and/or I.  That is why I responded "personally"...because I feel I was being "personally" adressed. This was explained and adressed in my posts when it was applicable.

As far as this most recent posting...I agree completely.

Yan,
Respect for that eloquent response, I must admit I was somewhat expecting to be dissed or ignored based on our previous interactions. You just clarified a lot of the issues brought up in this thread and gave me some good food for thought, thanks. I see what you're saying; it's something like how when there's a discussion with an equal amount of men and women in the room, the men would tend to 'hog the mic' and be interrupting/silencing the sisters, often without really realizing it, and sometimes we might need to just shut up for a minute and let the sisters have their say, I could see how the same thing would apply. Sometimes I might need to shut up and let other people speak. But not all the time though, I'm definitely gonna have my say and I won't second guess myself or be intimidated from speaking my mind by anyone whether white black brown pink red or green (although if I saw a green person I might be too shocked to speak my mind), but I see now that that's not what you're saying, anyway I'd still like Bantu Kelani to clarify exactly what she meant by some things, but I think I get what you're saying now and I agree. Peace.

Acceptance. Everyone wants to be accepted, and no one wants to be ostracized. So in the pursuit of acceptance we deny parts or our whole self - like persons of mixed races who deny one of their parents - and sometimes we agree with ideologies that go against our very nature. It is difficult to stand alone but necessary. I know some of the darkest Afrikans who have the whitest mindset. I also know some light complected Afrikans who are the epitome of down. But in the pursuit of acceptance they deny their essence. The beautiful thing about being either light or dark complected or of mixed parentage is that no matter how small ,Afrikan blood is in dem veins.  

It's refreshing to read well thought out argument from an informed Black woman. Kuddos to Yan!!


The batwas, the mbutis and other light skinned native peoples of Africa have broad noses, thick lips and kinky hair. Whereas the yellow or brown in color mixed raced Blacks have thin nose, wavy or curly hair, chestnut or even green eyes. The latter are not "negroid". So, why should we make the mistake to see them as something they are not? Like you say, perhaps, like Tiger Wood, the multiracial Blacks should feel proud who they really are, that is Black/multiracial of African and European, Semite, Indian or Asian origin. Perhaps then they will accept themselves with no background/heritage trickery.  


Gman, it is somehow charming to see mixed race Black men and women come up with a pile of excuses, but eventually you have to stop juvenile thought process whereby fantasy and personal ideology are desired over reality. It's important for you to ask why you are always in denial. As you know you are not victim of the most extremist prejudice. The only ones in the world that experience the most outrages and killings are the dark-skinned-pure Black-kinky-haired-Africans all over the world. Since slavery time the masters would put the mixed-light-skin-Blacks in the house with them which we called "house slaves" and the dark-skinned-pure-Black-kinky-haired-slaves would stay out in the fields because whites felt "more comfortable" around light skin Blacks than dark skin Blacks as they felt that the lighter you are the better. And when the mixed-light-skin-slaves were house slaves they adapted some of their characteristics in their lifestyle of living that's how the light-skinned-Black upper class came to have their characteristics.

You claim to be light skin in color like brother Malcolm, so remember there was a period when you would pass the paper bag test. That paper bag could allow you to be a part of the upper class Black elite  this includes especially the Black fraternities and sororities. And, you know some of this belief still exists today. Thus, while many young mixed raced Blacks like you today know injustice in housing, employment, political, justice and civil affairs in western countries you certainly will not be in the receiving of violence in Sudan, Mauritania, Latin America and South and Eastern Asia even in places like the Dominican Republic.. This issue is subject of deep traumatism for me. That's why I will continue to give forcing attention to kinky-haired-pure Black/Africans who look like me.

I understood even before writing these posts that many Pro-Black Black/biracial people may come up here outraged. But I guess that shows that these Pro-Black or "conscious" half Black biracial don't want anything to do with boosting dark-skinned-pure Black-kinky-haired-Africans self-esteem or positions..

   
I think your premise is overly simple, and for the most part ignores some real issues.. You view structural oppressions as the construct of imperialism and colonialism against our people. You have to mindful however that bigotry, racism and hatred against Black people aren't just in social, political and economic structures and institutions but are also the sum of individual attitudes. In a place like Western countries, it's not only the establishement that are overtly racist but necessary the individuals (some white family members of multiracial Blacks clearly are). So, at this stage of the game, even if every mixed raced Black were an agent of the political program for Black liberation, it would not make a lot of difference if they don't push this program in their own white houses and family units. Actual micro-actions to dismantle the structures that support inequality against Blacks is necessary, not just macro-actions.


I'm asking a question while seeing posted pictures of a light-skinned mixed Black child among others dark-skinned-pure lack-kinky-haired-Africans ones in Africa. I asked the question to his Black father and he answered, (I greatly appreciate your answers Patriot Warrior!) then we expend on his answers. I'm highly skeptical of multiracial Blacks in general for good reasons, which why I asked the question. So, tell me how I am off topic here? I'm going to continue to ask those types of questions to parents of multiracial Blacks until I understand this issue.. And expect that each time I'm going to see mixed Blacks on here, any children and their parents I am going to ask them to give some input.


B.K

For us, to be african is not determinated by our skin colour. Many criminals in africans countries are black. Many dictators who boil our land are black also :o.
This debate must be sociological, and not political. To make this debate between black and white, a political debate, is a trap to idiot.
Here were one truth African family with albino children!
Comments?
(http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/bp/albinos.jpg)

NKOSSI
African Renaissance

Please, do not get lost in the semantics of your demagogue rhetoric Mr. Noel Moukala. Black albinos are not "multiracial" mixed Blacks with European genetic background. They are a "pure" Black race. They just don't have any melanin or any pigment in their skin. WHY ARE YOU IGNORING THE WHOLE ARGUMENT AYINDE, YAN AND I PUT IN PLACE? The kinky-hair-dark-skinned-Black-Africans around the world are reminded every singled day of their inferiority by the white exploitative and oppressive systems, together with by light skinned Blacks who have white in their blood, they who predominately in Black or "colored" nations have been having tactics and philosophies of the hundreds years of oppression, lynching, the worst kind of slavery man has known and injustice against the kinky-hair-dark-skinned-Black-Africans. So, of course you make no point in your post. Check out the mixed-raced Sudanese (Arab wannabees) believe that they are better than the dark-skinned Black Sudanese in that they are Arabs, that they have their lineage dating back to Arabia! The kinky-hair-dark-skinned-Black-Africans in Mauritania, and Sudan are being made slaves to this day! How do you explain that? Let's face it you have no justifications [smiley=dozey.gif]..

B.K

BK: I know quite a few mixed-race Black people who are not yellowish/brownish, do not have wavy hair or green eyes or thin lips, and are in fact completely indistinguishable from other Black people. I talking black black-skinned, kinky-haired, thick-lipped big-nosed people one of whose parents is as pink as a piglet. I also know people all of whose parents and grandparents are Black, who grew up entirely among Black people, who are yellowish/brownish and/or wavy-haired/thin-lipped etc., due to some white genes in there down the line, most likely from a rapist. My ex-fiancee is as black as black can be, her grandfather was a creole guy from New Orleans who looked white, is she 'mixed race'? If I had married her and had youths with her, who would almost certainly be more her color than mine, would they be 'mixed race'? What is the definition of this mixed race, where do you draw the line?
What about African-descent people who are mixed with something other than white? Guyana has a lot of dougla people, Black/East Indian, most Blacks and Indians in Guyana are dark-skinned, so most dougla people are dark-skinned or black-skinned, some may have more wavy hair/Indian features, some may have more kinky hair/thick lips/African features. In my experience the majority, especially those who look more Black, identify more as Black, mainly because they tend to get more prejudice from the Indian side of their families (especially if they're Hindu) than from the African side. Where do they fall into this equation? Mauritian people are like a whole 'race' of 'douglas', where do they fall, are they Black? Walter Rodney's concept of Black Power encompassed Indians as well (a lot of whom in Guyana are literally black, if you're talking skin color), would you agree with him?
What about Amhara, Tigray, Eritrean, Somali people who may be as black-skinned as black-skinned can be but have more wavy hair, thinner noses or whatever, are they excluded from the category of Black? Here in the UK Somalians are probably the most discriminated-against of African-descent people here, not only by white people but other Black people as well, the fact that some of them have wavy hair and thin lips does not seem to have made them any closer to the hearts of white british people.
As far as 'excuses', I wasn't aware I'd made any, just trying to outline my own experience from my own perspective, if it sounds like 'excuses' to someone that's all well and good, but for me it's just simply my experience.
I look forward to continuing the dialogue whenever you get the chance.

I said that because Yan was insinuating that "people"(the mixed/light skinned people) on the thread were only paying attention to the "light skinned child"...because the child was light/mixed...I was explaining that the reason the conversation took that direction is because you Kelani, directly asked people of mixed African descent to respond to your thoughts....I was explaining that the attention given to that one picture and topic on my part had nothing to do with the fact that she was light...but that she just so happened to look just like I did as a child... and that you had asked the questions that led to the direction the thread took....The reason I pointed this out is because Yan was insinuating in his posts that the mixed people started this topic of conversation, when actually you were the initiator of the topic. I don't have a problem with you asking such questions...I'm glad you did and do...You are misinterpretting my comment as an attack on you and your line of questioning...when it is not. It was my attempt to try and point out a contradiction in Yan's post...Yan was criticising the direction this thread took. If Yan was irritated about the light/skinned mixed folks topic of convo...It would have only been logical to criticise the person that asked the question...not just the people who responded...Wouldn't you agree that it is illogical to comment/critisize the direction or attention to the topic of light-skinned/mixed people, and insinuate in the post that the mixed people are highlighting a particlar picture because of colour consciousness...When we were directly asked to respond in such way?

Here is what Yan said...


Now why would Yan say this KNOWING you directly asked mixed race Blacks to respond to your questions and give their opinions? It would be rude and illogical for people fitting that description not to respond...Especially in my case, considering the person who is asking it(you) is someone I know personally and consider as a friend. It would have been wrong of me, in my eyes, not to respond at length when you could clearly see I have read and posted on this particular thread previousely...In fact, I would have thought you were expecting a long respose from me...the same responses Yan is complaining about... I doubt Yan was reffering to you when speaking of "many here" and "some"... So I ask again....Why would Yan criticise the people responding and not the person asking the question? That is illogical and I had to point it out. I hope you now understand my intentions in pointing out to Yan that you posed the questions...I'm not irritated with the direction of the thread(well I wasn't irritated at your questions but the current direction of the thread is all over the place)..Yan was showing irritation at the subject...So Yan should have been equally complaining about the person who posed the question or that the questions were posed at all.....or, to be consistant, Yan shouldn't have complained about the direction of the thread and made insinuations at all. And it was obvious that insinuations were being made. After reading this Yan may also understand the background goings on between the person asking the question and my long posts...There is a corralation...My posts weren't just long because of the subject matter...but also mainly because of who was asked the questions...someone I consider a friend who I would want to thoroughly understand my possition on such matters...

In other words I was "attacking"(for lack of a better term) Yan...not the fact that you asked anything of anybody. The questions you asked needed to be asked...Look at the length of this thread. We have some inter-familial stuff to sort out amongst all people of African descent.

Kelani said...


Since I am the only mixed race women on this thread(or the only one who as identified themselves as such)...Was this directed towards me also?  Please clarify this for me...

As far as your general mistrust of mixed/light skinned people. I can't blame you. It is only logical considering the history. I personally NEVER blame darker Blacks for not trusting the motives of lighter Blacks. I see light Blacks every day that have a superiority complex and all the other emotional and mental falicies their privileged status in the colour caste system gives them...especially here, in the Southern U.S.  I'm used to being questioned and treated with suspicion by darker Blacks(especially because of my political beliefs)...It doesn't bother me(in person) whatsoever because it is a logical defense mechanism that I would employ if the shoe was on the other foot.

This is a personal response to the general thread...
The reason I have been defensive on this thread is because I thought the history of my posts and comments on this site should have given the impression that I didn't have that mentality.(I actually think they did) It was saddenning to me to see that posters here...Although they know, or at least I have exposed to them over the last year, the inner working of my mind,...compared to the average person who just sees me for the first time...thought I could possibly have harbored such colour prejudice/ or superiority towards the masses of our brothers and sisters in the struggle. I know this is showing I did take some of the posting personally...Of which I did...But some of the insinuations made about peoples comments on here(in particular mine) were personal...and were not just speaking in the general sense to the general reading audience. This disturbed me. I have posted on similar subject matter on this site(about light skinned/dark skinned issues) prior to posting my photo, or disclosing the fact that I am light/mixed race and I never recieved these types of insinuations or responses from anyone. That may be because assumptions were made about my appearance based on the ideology in my posts...(I am also often mistaken for being a man because of my posting style, so that would not be a surprise)...Anyhow, I just find that odd to say the least.

Although many people still fall for his trickery...Willie Lynch is dead. I want to burry him and his legacy through organization, activism, and my personal actions.

Diallogues like this one assist in our forward movement.
We will get past these hurdles one day, it is just a matter of when.  I will personally put in every effort to do so.  

Forward ever, backward never!

I left this thread primarily because of your overly defensive responses, not that I thought you clarified anything. Simply claiming to be the exception to the general conduct of light-skinned people is no proof of being different, and the responses really clarify nothing. It certainly is not my intention to get anyone feeling so distraught about this topic that they leave the board for what I genuinely believe they do not understand.  
 
I would venture to say that even this recent attempt to explain how the focus on the thread shifted, is being drawn from one line in Yan’s post, that was posted directly below two of gman’s posts.    
 
Yan said: “Patriot Warrior posted pictures of beautiful black people and all many here have been showcasing is the defensives of mixed-race ones trying to show how they fit in. Maybe some have forgotten the dark-skinned Black children in the photos.”    
 
It is a fact this was done.    
 
Patriot Warrior was sharing from HIS trip to Africa, and you directed our attention to the light-skinned child in the photo, then to you personally. For some of us, this is typical light-skinned conduct. You may have very genuinely felt that your moves were all innocent about seeing a child that reminded you of how you were when you were a child. But to some of us that is the usual conduct of light-skinned ones. It is like an automatic impulse to take the spotlight. Even if you felt the child looked like you when you were young, I failed to see how you made that point by posting an adult picture of you. The only thing that was obviously similar between the child’s photo and your adult one is the fact that you were both light-skinned. If you had posted a picture of you around the same age of the child, we all would have been better able to see what was so similar beyond the obvious skin color.  
 
I am sure Patriot Warrior had much more to share, and may have done so if more attention was paid to getting his views about the trip. I was keenly looking forward to some more of his impressions of conditions in Africa. This could probably be done another time on another thread, as this Colorism issue is also important.
   
There are other things I observed, which I would hold for another time.  
 
I hope my observations are not cause for more concern than is necessary, I do feel you make good inputs on this forum. But I am of the view that you are overly defensive about this issue of Colorism, and that in itself shows you do have things to work on.

Ayinda,

They aren't cause for over concern but are worthy of a response...

I posted the current picture of me because I don't have any other pictures downloaded. A friend of mine downloaded that pic, I don't even have possession of it. She e-mailed it to me because I don't have a scanner. At the point I posted the picture it was in direct response to seeing his daughter. It is her whole face. I don't think every light skinned child with curley hair looks like me. That would be rediculous. You may not see my motivations as innocent...even though all my past behavior on this site would contradict such a conclusion, but so be it. I can actually understand why to a certain extent. Like I said to Kelani...I would interpret the actions of light/skinned mixed-race people with suspicion if the shoe were on the other foot because of the history. I thought Patriot Warrior might want to see what his daughter may look like later on...I see I shouldn't be so free with my personal commentary on this board so it won't be misconstrued...I will keep most discussion ideological from now on, like I have done in the past. In fact, I wrestled over posting my picture because I was apprehensive about the reaction I would get after people knew what I looked like. I tossed that apprehension out of my mind because I thought to myself, "These people on this site know what I think for over a year, they won't react the way people do when they see me for the first time with no background on how I think on certain subjects"  I didn't want to appear that I was trying to put the spotlight on myself. In fact I was worried I would get the exact reaction I did, and people would respond to my posts with different assumptions because of my phenotypical appearance and the historical attitude of people that look like me...I guess I should have listened to that inner voice...

I have never been "defensive" about this topic before, and it has come up in the past, and I have commented on it. So I fail to see a pattern of me being defensive. This is the first time...but I see that is not being taken into consideration. I'm defensive because I care what people that I have respect for think about me. The people on this forum...and I feel my motivations were being misinterpreted, wchich they are. I would have thought that the entire year of posting on this forum would have been some evidence that I was an exception to the rule but I see it is not.(at least in your eyes you have came to your conclusions of off the postings on this one thread) You would just have to know me I guess. Nothing I state at this point will change you, or anyone elses opinion, so I will let it rest. Kelani knows me personally and knows I don't harbour such attitudes...Which was also cause for some concern on my part because of the nature of some of her responses to my posts. I know myself, and the people around me know me, and my works. That will be enough for me.

I wouldn't leave the board because of one thread or people's personal opinons. I would have stopped posting a long time ago, especially on this thread, if that was going to be my reaction. I don't scare that easily...Plus, the site is just too good a source of information, conversation, and ideas. I just know the boundaries now.

I sincerely hope the conversation directs back towards Patriot Warriors trip...and Africa in general, that should be all of our primary focus.

Well, I am sorry I diverted the original topic of this thread. I've should known better than discussing colorism here...Shame on me!

B.K

huh? I hope this was in jest...

I personally feel you asked legitimate questions that needed legitimate answers. This statement I made wasn't even directed towards any actions of yours...I thought we were supposed to keep the motherland and the masses as the focus...but of course we need to discuss side issues also...but I never called your questions a diversion. I'm starting to feel like I can't win for loosing no matter what I say on this thread...I give up on this one. But not on the site...or the struggle.

I hope I could be forgiven for saying ONE more thing off the original topic of this thread, and then I will leave it alone other than to join Ayinde and others in asking Patriot Warrior for more reflections on his trip home.
The one thing is this, with all due respect, it seems totally unreasonable to take Oshun-Auset's statement that she saw the pic of the child and was shocked at how much she looked like her as a child, and make it seem like O.A. was deliberately trying to shift the focus of the conversation to light-skinned/mixed-race people. I really have a hard time believing that Ayinde, Yan or anyone (esp. having read O.A.'s posts before, which I don't think tend to emphasize light-skinned/mixed-race people), REALLY believes that that was the case. Also, I bet if you were to look through all the threads on here, you would find that the majority of them drifted from their original subject, regardless of if Oshun Auset, Bantu Kelani, myself or whoever posted on them. Believe it or not me saying this has nothing to do with standing in light-skinned solidarity with my mixed bredren and sistren, it just has to do with  fair judgements of people, and I really feel that was an unfair and unfounded judgement of Oshun Auset. With that said, I'm out.

Gman said: “it seems totally unreasonable to take Oshun-Auset's statement that she saw the pic of the child and was shocked at how much she looked like her as a child, and make it seem like O.A. was deliberately trying to shift the focus of the conversation to light-skinned/mixed-race people. I really have a hard time believing that Ayinde, Yan or anyone”

It is totally unreasonable for you to ‘distort’ what I said. You neglected the example I gave, which showed my observation of a conduct, in order to draw your ‘conclusion’. In Oshun’s response to which I responded, she was trying to make an issue of Yan’s point. I am showing that the diversion was real, and it took place from when she presented her photo, and how she presented it did not make her case of showing the child resembled her. The photo appeared to be more highlighting the similarity in their skin-color and maybe long hair, as I could not see from her adult photo a resemblance to the child in the photo apart from that.

I said:



If you are interpreting this quote to mean I said it was deliberately done, then I am saying that you are leaning on your own misunderstanding or your narrow view and interpretation of what I said. If I wanted I could have shown more examples than that lone observation about the pictures, which is in sync with the automatic conduct of many light-skinned and white ones.

Even feeling that everything a blacker one says or does should be understood by light-skinned, mixed race or White ones, or should be written in a way to be palatable to light-skinned, mixed race or White ones in order for it to be considered valid, is another example of how fairer-skinned/mixed race and white ones can play on privileges. I don’t feel it is necessary for you to understand or even agree with anything or everything I say. If you don’t see the things I do and say the same way I do, then that is quite understandable and in order.

The direction of the thread has already shifted, and I don’t think it is even practical for Patriot Warrior to continue on this thread. You all can go on with your discussion.

The blasted computer just lost my response I just wrote to this. Very briefly: you said OA "may have" had innocent motivations in talking about PW's daughter etc., this implies that she may not have, which implies that you thought she COULD HAVE BEEN deliberately 'sabotaging' the thread as it were, to promote herself and other brown people, I just can't see how you could really believe that she could possibly have deliberately done this. It's not like she's some mystery person who's never posted here before, you can get some sense of where she's coming from from her other posts. As for the adult picture, I could see a resemblance beyond skintone and hair texture. OA's explanation that she didn't have any pics of herself as a child on hand sounds perfectly plausible to me. Basically the whole thing struck me as kind of making a mountain out of a molehill and insinuating that OA could have had questionable motives for her post, when I think you all know very well that she did not, it seemed more like the opportunity came up to put the third degree on OA and me as lighter-skinned folks, and was seized upon. Not saying there's anything wrong with getting that third degree, in fact I appreciate the points you all (SELF) and Bantu Kelani make on these sort of threads, they've led me to question some long-held assumptions and broadened my worldview, however in this case the general vibe I got was, AH-HA look a light-skinned person 'slipped up'/'revealed their true colors' or something, let's get em! Which would be fine if O.A. HAD, but I don't think she did at all, and I still don't think that you all really thought that she did, it seemed like just a convenient excuse to criticize her.
When you say I 'distort' your words Ayinde, I think in general its cos I have a different approach to this forum than you, I respond kind of informally to my general impression of what people are saying, I don't necessarily analyze things line for line and have the person's original statement in front of me. I may be a sloppy debater by the standards of this forum, but I don't deliberately set out to distort what you say.

P.S. I don't really see where I made the assumption that everything a blacker one does or says should be made palatable to lighter skinned, mixed and white ones.
But I think if you're talking to a bunch of people you (generic 'you' not you personally) should try your best to be clearly understood by everyone you're talking to. I don't know if this was at all a reference to my question on the other board about your thought on poverty, but in that case I don't think the fact that I (apparently) didn't clearly understand what you were saying had anything to do with my being lighter-skinned or mixed. It was just plain open to misinterpretation. Certainly a blacker one on that thread misinterpreted it (though then again we both know that that particular person doesn't like you much, so he might have been quicker to misinterpret something in a way that would make you look bad).
Well I guess I should learn to use all the quote functions and whatnot, so I don't distort anyone's words.

  As much as everyone hates to admit it the direction this thread took was necessary and inevitable. The topic is obviously heated and needs to be further explored if not now later. I feel that light complected and/or multiracial individuals should not be made to feel inferior. Darker skin does not make
an individual superior, a better leader, closer to afrika, or more inforned Ayinde. Cornel West in race matters states, "The days of brokering for the black turf - of posing as the Head Negro In Charge - are over. To be a serious black leader is to be a race-transcending prophet who critiques the powers that be ( including the black component of the Establishment) and who puts forward a vision of fundamental change for all who suffer from socially induced misery." I take from and add to the latter, complexion-transcending. We all have at one time or another have felt some prejudice toward us whether light or dark. The whole light vs dark thing only creates elitist groups, and propels seperatism

I feel you Preach, but just to clarify, I never said and I never felt that Ayinde or anyone was putting themselves up as 'superior' because they are dark-skinned. (Maybe Bantu Kelani a bit with her talk of 'purity' but I wouldn't even say that til I hash out the issue more with her). It is a fact that to some extent at least there already has been an elite group created, i.e. lighter-skinned people. This is speaking in broad generalities. Well I can't complete my thoughts, I've got to go.

It seems far from the original intentions of a trip to Africa being shared here, this thread has even gone beyond race and skin color. There is an alarming amount of overt and covert dishonesty going on.  
 
With my post on mixed race children (in direct response to a request to try to understand this better) I included my feelings to an idea presented recently by a regular poster on the general board.  
 
"I feel the suggestions that this be a tool to end racism are pure folly on the part of anyone clinging to such a faulty belief system. The individual who would make that suggestion is obviously not directly experienced, and so therefore is making wild assumptions in an attempt to avoid the responsibilities of each and every one of us to do our best daily to break down the Racist System. I would suggest anyone who makes such a suggestion, needs to spend some more time getting educated out of such ignorance. There is no longer any excuse not to."
 
Only Kelani knows how she did not see this, as I am aware she follows most of the issues regularly. Now even if this was not clear to her, instead of assuming what I was referring to, asking might have been viewed as less of an attempt to draw a defensive response to match wits, and it would have shown a respect for my right to examine and discuss this issue. Oshun’s concurrent on Kelani’s take made this more apparent, as it was questionable whether Oshun even bothered to read what I had said.  
 
This thread has been filled with many other examples of questionable intentions to outright dishonesty. The usual response is overly defensiveness or even more distortions to cover the distortions. Take the example of my saying, "However I would suggest that with careful and proper guidance, mixed children can have a function as a bridge to knowledge of both sides of the various race issues." Gman tried to make it appear this was offensive by changing and deleting certain words to again create an atmosphere of confrontation. Yes, this too was a distortion.  
 
Other examples have been brought forward, yet it seems impossible to admit to this, and try to correct the errors in honesty.  
 
The bottom line is honesty doesn't come in degrees. Deceptions such as using excuses like not knowing how to use the quote function while deliberately not quoting correctly are not little mistakes. Honesty doesn't come in a diet form by leaving out or changing key ingredients. It cannot be slimmed down by using it sparingly or only when convenient to prove one’s opinion/feelings are more correct. What would it take for ones to simply admit they don't understand, be it the issue at hand or an individual’s comments?

Patriot Warrior appears to be a fierce defender of the purity of Black Culture and the Black Race but gee, I see his daughter being a mixed race child. So me as usual, I want to have a clue.. If you think seeing (large) pictures of light skinned multiracials in this thread wouldn't tickle the Black Pride sentiment of the dark skinned black/Africans on this message board I'm sorry, you must be crazy.

B.K

kristine,
Look nuh. I started out that statement by saying I was NOT trying to jump down your throat, but that if YOU re-read what YOU posted I thought YOU might see how someone in my position might find at least THE WORDING of it offensive. Where the HELL did I 'distort' anything you said. I referred to exactly what you just re-quoted yourself saying. I guess you really can't see how you as a white person telling me what my 'function' is could POSSIBLY be seen as offensive in any way. If you can't see that, fine, but don't go talking nonsense bout I 'distorting' what you said. I cannot be bothered to go back over the two posts. But if you can show me how in hell I distorted anything you said, I will send you a blasted prize in the mail. Maybe I quoted you saying 'bridge the divide' instead of 'bridge the gap' or vice versa or something like that, I haven't been using the 'quote' tools so I might not have quoted you precisely word for word, although to my recollection I did. You show me how anything I quoted you as saying 'distorted' what you just quoted yourself as saying. Anyway, just refer back to what you just re-quoted, and consider what I wrote a response to that, which it was.

"gman tried to make it appear that this was offensive by changing or deleting certain words"
I didn't bloody TRY to make anything APPEAR offensive, I TOLD you that at least the WORDING of what you said offended ME.
I see now where I just slightly misquoted you again. You are mistaking the fact that I type quick responses without necessarily going over everything line-by-line like we in a model U.N. debate, with 'distorting' what you said. How does "bridge to knowledge" as opposed to "bridge the gap" change the general meaning of what you were saying? If you check back at my response I mostly objected to the wording "function" and "careful and proper guidance" and the hackneyed idea of us 'multiracial' people as "a bridge".
Most of all I just object to the idea of any white person telling me who the rass I am or what the rass my function is.
I may never know what it is to be 'fully Black' and I will certainly never know what it is to be in any way white, well by the same token you will never know what it is to be a B.A.D.N. (see one of my previous posts) so why you trying to tell me about it?

WTF... who is being 'dishonest' now... cos I thought I would actually go back and re-read that message, and guess what, that was the one time I DID use the quote function (though apparently not correctly cos it didn't come out in a little box.) So Kristine your entire quote was right there at the top of my blasted post, so how de rass I 'misquoting' you let alone "deliberately" misquoting you (as if you could telepathically read my intentions). KINDLY RESPOND AND EXPLAIN THAT.

Perhaps, gman, you could reread your post, and reflect on the second time you tried to quote me – yes, omitting words to distort what I was saying - to apply to yourself what was intended as a general suggestion in regard to mixed race children.    
   
You said:  
 
"Perhaps it's a matter of wording rather than the concept behind it, but the idea that "with careful and proper guidance" I can "have a function" "    
   
However, I said:    
   
"with careful and proper guidance, mixed children can have a function as a bridge to knowledge"    

"a function", meaning just one apart from many, and not only one function.
   
My entire statement again:    
   
"However I would suggest that with careful and proper guidance, mixed children can have a function as a bridge to knowledge of both sides of the various race issues, although they will not be able to ever really experience the full impact of being Black or White, and yes, ultimately they, themselves will have to settle where they feel they fit best, hopefully totally comfortable relating to both sides of their identity.”  
 
As I said before:  
 
"What would it take for ones to simply admit they don't understand, be it the issue at hand or an individual's comments?"    
 
I guess you can respond to me in the style of a thug, because I am white.

"The style of a thug"???? Where the hell does that come from? You trying to goad me into blowing my top and getting deleted from the thread or something? Using very mild so-called swear words like "blasted" and "rass", to show that one is in fact a bit angry, makes one a "Thug"? What is a "thug" anyway? Now you're a white victim? You think your little legalistic searching through words to find where I supposedly "misquoted" you (by making the ****COMPLETELY UNJUSTIFIABLE**** assumption that since you said "mixed children" and since I am or once was a "mixed child" then you would be referring to ME as well as all the other mixed children in the world, and since I was TRYING to get you to see how the WORDING of your post COULD be seen as offensive by mixed-race people I EXPLAINED to you HOW it seemed offensive to ME).
The plurality or singularity of the word "function" was something I had not even thought about. It was the mechanical-ness of the word itself that as I EXPLAINED TO YOU "RUBBED ME THE WRONG WAY". I did not say that you deliberately set out to rub me the wrong way, just explained that that wording DID. You on the other hand seem utterly convinced that I deliberately set out to "distort" your words (DESPITE ALL YOUR WORDS BEING RIGHT THERE AT THE TOP OF THE POST FOR ALL TO SEE) in order to personally attack you. I can assure you that nothing was farther from my mind, but since you are convinced that I'm out to get you cos you a honkey so you fair game (but I never say ANYTHING to the Black people I disagree with, do I?????), nothing I say will convince you otherwise.
The funny thing is, I was never even trying to accuse you of anything or to make you 'look bad' or anything, I was trying to get YOU to see how the WORDING of what you said seemed offensive to me. Your reaction, ironically enough for someone going on about people's defensiveness, is EXTREME defensiveness when I wasn't even ACCUSING you of anything, just trying to show you why I thought that was a poor choice of words! But you INSIST that I was DELIBERATELY trying to DISTORT what you said! That's complete garbage and anyone that goes over the damn threads would be able to see that, so I done with this, it's only getting me angry and I have things to do today, so kristine I will bid you adieu. Have a most pleasant life and I'm so glad that you are now an enlightened whitey who knows everything, you know what's best for the other whities, and it looks like you know what's best for the darkies too, well isn't that nice, bye bye now.