Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?
     
1.  REALIZE THAT YOU ARE A SINNER AND IN NEED OF A SAVIOR:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not richeous because we do bad things.

A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store is punishable by going to jail.  Even if we lie one time, the punishment is hell, which is eternal separation from God.  No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already committed a sin which will be punished if you are not pardoned.  Just as if you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed.  Just as the president can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die.

2. BECAUSE OF OUR SINS, WE DIE BOTH SPIRITUALLY AND PHYSICALLY, BUT GOD SENT HIS SON TO TAKE OUR PUNISHMENT AND GIVE US A CHANCE NOT TO HAVE TO GO TO HELL.

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

4.  WE MUST CONFESS JESUS CHRIST AS OUR SAVIOR WITH OUR MOUTHS AND BELIEVE IN OUR HEARTS THAT HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD, BY DOING THIS WE ARE RECEIVING HIM:

Ro 10:9,10  "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {power: or, the right, or, privilege}
(KJV)

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church can't get you there, you can only get to heaven by turning to Jesus and asking Him to Save you.  While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven if they do these things, but the bible says that there is only one way to heaven and that is through receiving what Jesus christ did on the cross for you.

Will you do that today?  If you will, you can be 100% sure that you will go to heaven when you die.  

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR YOUR SINS?  DO YOU ACCEPT WHAT HE DID FOR YOU TO PAY FOR YOUR SINS?

If you are willing to receive Jesus Christ as your Savior please pray this from your heart to God,

"Dear LORD JESUS, I believe that YOU died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins.  I realize that I cannot get to heaven any other way other than to trust YOU as my SAVIOR.  I ask you to forgive me for my sins and take me to heaven when I die.  I receive YOU as my Lord and SAVIOR.  Thank You for Saving me in JESUS name amen"

If you prayed that prayer from your heart to God, and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven when you die.

Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.  

Go away and preach somewhere else. You are not wanted here. Go preach in Hobbiton, Mordor or anywhere else in middle earth but not here. Bye.

Hello all,

I don't mean to come off preachy or in your face. I am only here to give the gospel according the what God's word says, not condemn anyone or be pushy. Sorry if it came off that way.  Please consider praying that prayer to God from your heart.

I greatly appreciate and respect you all,

Scott

Peace XFRODOBAGGINSX Whew! Just Kidding. Do you personally feel that you will go to heaven, why or why not?

Because I have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ.  When I asked Jesus to be my Savior, something happened inside me.  God's Spirit came inside my heart and raised my dead spirit from the dead.  I can feel the Holy Spirit inside me and he comforts me.  When I pray, read my bible I can feel His presence very strongly.  There is no greater peace than knowing that you are at peace with God.  Give God a chance.  Pray that prayer from your heart to God, give God a chance.  Read my post and pray that to God.

Funny... the Hebew word for the 'Holy Ghost' you speak of is feminine... it would therefore be a 'she' not 'he'... so by the "Sun Book" you are referring to you are actually feeling what should be referred to as a 'her'.

Ask yourself why then you have been taught to say "he" and "him"...

Know don't believe.

This man came on earth, healed the sick, raised the dead, walked on water and no one except his 12 disciples found it fit to jot down a few words about him  [smiley=confused.gif] No historical evidence of the existence of that Jesus character....so strange.

Why wait until u die to find heaven?

There are secular writings of His life on earth, that just isn't true.  Plus, we base our calender on His life.  Plus, why would the disciples go through agonizing deaths, persecution for something that was false?

XFRODOBAGGINSX,

The Jesus mythology was derived from other myths popular in Antiquity at least Ptolemy's Osiris and Isis. It is literal commonsense Christianity is metaphorical + flawed with nonsense, so sane black people cannot rely on Christianity for the truth it is only a tool of false history and racism.

You can continue to spew all the [censored] you want. Most posters won’t believe you here. We have dealt with people like you who invade black websites so many times.

B.K  

Jesus the Christ will never come back again, he came to earth, to carry on an ongoing spiritual war with the Romans or the Arian race for his people’s freedom the Israelites. He was never here for nobody else but the Israelites who are white with brown eyes and black hair, his message was a universal one, “we are all within the all and not of this realm”.

I've got to give the missionaries the ancient Kemetic "Golden Fly Award"...Because just like flies, they just keep coming and coming...no matter how many you shew away.

(http://www.ancientsites.com/aworlds_media/ibase_1/00/01/41/00014143_000.gif)

Good award sista Oshun Auset..

It’s amazing how these white supramcist Europeans who stole most of their theology form Africa can turn it around and constantly use it against us, and to see blacks brainwashed with this nonsense is downright pathetic. We are still in slavery today with Christian Logic!

XFRODOBAGGINSX left white folks to make black people converts so they can be slaughtered easily Amen [smiley=sad.gif] !

B.K

Jesus never wrote a book nor did his disciples, he never died on the cross and he was also married with children. In fact he was berried in Egypt where he spent his child hood. The Egyptians knew that he was prophet or a leader of his people, so they took care of him until he became a man, the rights of passage to become a man and be tutored or initiated into priest hood as a man was at the age 12 in the Egyptian society.
He will never be a saviour for me or any Nubians, he is just the leader of the Israelites and because all great souls come with a universal message I respect him but, I don’t worship or bow down to him. Nubians should find their own leaders and have a day to remember each of our great ancestors, for we have many of our great souls who have raised the dead and walked on water and gave sight to the blind.

Thank you for trying to explain to our brother, who came in the place confused and now he maybe thinking about the bible and its context. Even if some of as where harsh with him, we should always welcome and try to teach and explain the Christian doctrine. Please try not to ridicule anyone who may be confused and looking for a way out of Christianity and their soul sends them here by some other ways.
We should welcome everyone who is lost like we all have been, any point of view they bring will humbly be discussed.

WORDS FUEL THE SPIRIT

Alafia Jemba,

I understand what you are saying and commend you on your iwa pele.... but a brief read through this section of the site in particular would have given him/her all the information you just posted plus more. Let alone if he went through all the links and read some of the books recommended on the site...or did his/her own study independandtly like most of the regular or serious new posters have. It is disturbing that people post on a site and don't read it first. Usually if a person is seeking something they do this. Students humble themselves and don't preach until they know of what they speak. They ask questions to learn, and they don't try to employ weak X-tian fear tactics like this person did initially.  When posters, and people in general obviousely have the intentions of being missionary men IMO we should call them on it. Especially since it happens so frequently.

I have a little to much Shango going on, and not enough Ifa at the moment. But sometimes that's called for.

Odabo

KIMIA MATONDO MINGI

PEACE THANK YOU VERY MUCH

Well me I'm very much Ogoun! He protects our people with cannon balls and bullets and led successful slave rebellions in Haiti, I only serve Ogoun so I don't have time to be nice...

Perhaps Jemba didn't noticed the pathetic various imposters who constantly introduce themselves to black people in these sites with their lie of biblical truth, Christian rituals, and beliefs to basically shape our peoples to be passive and accept our plight as shaped by others.. to this day. It makes no sense for informed black persons to suffer this garbage. Why suffer a lie? This is a BLACK community with a PRO BLACK perspective and anti-mainstream media negativity. Discussions about Christianity (a European political instrument) are cool, but every single thing about this religion will be attacked by proud and informed blacks because it's an affront to our point of views and interests!

Christianity pure nonsense!!!!!!

B.K

Kimia yaya kelani

Many Nubians in the west and in Afrika are mentally trapped by the Hebrew Scriptures. The old biblical scripture before the Romans spiritually enslaved the Jews was the history of the Israelites and of their leaders and creation. It also contained what the Hebrews learnt wile they where in Egypt for a short time.
The Romans have now made a pact with the Jews to control the world and spiritually enslave the human races. They changed the Israelite texts and made it into a perfect tool to trap the minds of not just the poor and suffering in the world, but also some of the most civilised nations.

If Nubians have been physically and spiritually enslaved with this tool that we call a bible, then the only way to help them to break the spell is with the same tool that many use as a clutch.
We might dislike the bible but its only because we know where it came from and how it reached afrika.
There are many ignorant people who do not yet over stand the lies and fantasies that the is inside the bible, but there is also many hidden truths and the only way any one who wanted to best explain spirituality or reincarnation and where people go when they die to a person with a Christian mind is with the tool that is keeping him or her a spiritual slave of the Arian race.

The kongolese people are only some of the blessed poor who will inherit the kingdom of GOD or DOG and of JESUS CHRIST or SUSEJ. So we have to EXPLAIN to these people without offending them that they are chasing after a DOG with a SUSEJ and that is no a spiritual quest.

Mbote tata jemba,

These sites contain many articles for the spiritual and mental betterment (upliftment) of black peoples. But I know the racist white people’s views of Jesus (a mythology) and Christianity. They are not talking from a black African perspective! Since Ancient Kemet these invaders of our ancestral lands come only to conquer! So I will attack them and condemn them, I can say what I feel anyway..

Can a black woman question fallible religions of many accuracies, failures of logic with biases and mixed motives, and ignorance in a BLACK forum?

IMO, if we fail to honestly attack these oppressors we continue to push our traditional heritage further down in the mud. While white people are welcomed to participate in these forums, we can't let them be proud to "miseducate" our peoples. Over 2 years I've been participating on these boards I advanced many times that Christianity is imperialistic and the bible, torah, and the Qur'an are sets of fables enough to make a sane person think, raised questions, and read for themselves.

It's clear to me if these Christians a.k.a Klansmen keep bringing disgrace to this BLACK community, again I will criticize them like I know how. Africaspeaks is not a Church! And proud and informed blacks are tired of being hit with the blood of Jesus!

B.K

Lol sister...Ogoun...I can see that!

Shango was also called upon in the slave rebellions of the Quilombos of Brazil... You are "nice"...when it is called for with commrads, but what warrior should be kind to the enemy? That's some slavemaster X-tian doctrine... If you don't kill the snake that bites you it will rise to bite you again.

When we see the actions of a missionary being displayed then...  [smiley=knife.gif]

"Jesus never wrote a book nor did his disciples, he never died on the cross and he was also married with children. In fact he was berried in Egypt where he spent his child hood. The Egyptians knew that he was prophet or a leader of his people, so they took care of him until he became a man, the rights of passage to become a man and be tutored or initiated into priest hood as a man was at the age 12 in the Egyptian society.  
He will never be a saviour for me or any Nubians, he is just the leader of the Israelites and because all great souls come with a universal message I respect him but, I don't worship or bow down to him. Nubians should find their own leaders and have a day to remember each of our great ancestors, for we have many of our great souls who have raised the dead and walked on water and gave sight to the blind. "



What is written above is a bold faced lie.  
You say that you respect Jesus, no you don't.  I know you don't because you call Him a liar.  Jesus Christ is NOT a liar.

Millions of blacks are Christians because they know that Jesus died for all men, black and white.  Jesus wasn't a white man, nor was He a black man. Jesus came to die for all men black and white.  It isn't fair to label Christianity as a white religion when just as many black people follow the same truth.  

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(KJV)


Does this verse leave out black people?  He said for whosoever

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This verse says that He is not willing that anyone should perish:

2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Jesus Christ loves the black man just as much as the white man or the Indian or the Asian or any other race.  Don't believe the lie that Christianity is a white religion.  It is for everyone.

Well, Mr. or Ms. XFRODOBAGGINSX, I don’t know who and what you are but I know you are not talking from a BANTU BLACK perspective! Could it be you are a white person whose priority is to spread the WHITE Christian tradition in this BLACK community hell no! It does not matter that black peoples have taken many customs of the oppressor! Christianity and your bible were not made by Africans for Africans! Christian churches which are controlled by Aryan groups claim there are gods chosen people! I ask you what is BLACK about Christ-insanity? You never figured out why before the BCE period black Africans were more spiritual and had more tolerance than the black Christians of today who have been indoctrinated with poison form Christian teachings, and they can’t even get along with themselves inside a church! Remimber the first slave ship to America was called the Jesus Christ! The Klu Klux Klan are Christians, Roman Catholic priests and Protestants, rabbis and imans alike raped our peoples, lynched, then killed us in Amerikkka, the Caribbean, and colonial Africa!

Your religion is not African although it has African origin but no sane black man or woman can buy your Christianity since it’s very bigoted!!! This site is nothing but a useful tool to liberate the minds of our peoples, you are not welcomed here if your purpose is to spread your religion who has been imposed upon us as a way of controlling black peoples!

B.K

I didn’t know that sista thanks for letting me know.


I agree and with wisdom, love for the Orishas, and the cult of our ancestors we just may succeed in daunting the Christian religion!!!! I feel the power of the drums it's just a matter of time now for papa Ogoun or Shango to come free us.  

B.K

"It has served us well, this myth of Christ"
-Pope Leo X (1475-1521)

[smiley=undecided.gif] [smiley=worried2.gif] [smiley=worried2.gif]..

B.K

The KKK are not Christians, they are cowards who hide behind a Christian guise, if they were Christians they wouldn't have murdered Jews and blacks.  The Catholics are not Christian either.  They persecuted and murdered the Christians by the millions during the dark ages.  That is why they call it the dark ages.  To call Christianity an aryan religion is to not even understand it's origins.  It is of Jewish origin, not white.  So to call it a white religion is a farce.  Jesus Christ and His disciples were almost all Jewish.  The gospel was given to the Jew first, then to all the blacks and whites and other races of the world.  You say that Christianity propetuates hatred, but the only one that I see with a hateful attitude is yours.  If I didn't care about you, I wouldn't be in here sharing the gospel with you.  Perhaps you can show me in the bible where it says to hate black people since you say that Christianity hates blacks and the bible is the book that they all go by.  

Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(KJV)


That word greek includes all races of people.

Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

Ga 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The bible even says to love your enemies:

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Lu 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Jesus Christ taught LOVE not hate.  Any group of people who claimed to be Christian and did otherwise violated the scriptures and will be judged of God.  There is no where in the bible to justify persecuting a specific group of people.  Jesus Christ is about Love, true love that only God can give.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Replace that word whosoever with your name.  He included you.

[smiley=vulcan.gif] [smiley=grin.gif] [smiley=grin.gif]… please keep spewing your garbage it gives me a reason to show how incredibly stupid your POV is. I have set straight many deluded individuals like you that’s my specialty!

I often hear the incessant blame-shifting of Christians who claim "OH NO! THAT’S NOT MY CHURCH!" The Protestants condemn the Catholics completely ignoring the fact that their religion in many respects is similar to Catholicism and ALL Christian sects had their origins in the original Christian church- the Catholic Church! Yes, you blame the Catholic Church when it comes to the subject of enslaving humanity. But when one look with open eyes, one can see how ludicrous your blame is because the Protestants are no different with their Salem Witch Trial murders and compulsory church attendance in Colonial Amerikkka! It is much easier for you to blame Catholics than it is for you to realize you have been deceived by your own "god" and your own ministry!!!

We as nation of Africans have lost our knowledge of self more so those who think the bible is god’s word that was given to god inspired priests yes the same priests who are running plugging little boys!!! Black African peoples had perfect spirituality before the Conquers and later on during the slave trade and colonization! So Xianity is not spiritual in any respect! Look to the endless contradictions in the bible and of course, the teachings of the Nazarene:

* He stole (Luke 19: 29-35; Luke 6: 1-5),
* He lied (Matthew 5:17; 16: 28; Revelation 3: 11)
* He advocated murder (Luke 19: 27)
* He demanded one of his disciples dishonor his parents and family (Luke 9: 59-62)

These are just a small sampling of commandments that are bad examples, but they are ordered by men of "GOD" to do right? The bible reveals bloodbath after bloodbath, incest, dishonesty, genocide, and mass murder incited by Jehovah to supply HIS need for blood! The question is can black peoples be spiritual without doctrine from a poisonous book and Christian teachings? In reality they CAN if they regain VITAL ANCESTRAL KNOWLEDGE that are sealed in the Vatican library which contains thousands upon thousands of ancient esoteric books from black people and other peoples around the world, our mystic heritage have been stolen and hoarded over the years and kept out of public circulation.

Never forget the Catholic Church is the root of the Christian religion, and THE PROTESTANTS SPEND TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO PROMOTING THE VATICAN LIES PUBLICLY, while their top religious leaders clandestinely work to enslave the world as they have in the past through their root, the Catholic Church so again it’s clear the Protestants are no different!  

I’m happy to be a black woman with a NKISI KONGO and VODUN spirituality because they are both POWERFUL, throughout the history they influenced black revolution against the oppressors, and I am determined to speak out fearlessly against Christianity, Judaism, and Islam inspired by Ogoun Nago and NZAMBI YA MPUNGU!

And YES the Klu Klux Klan are CHRISTIANS just like Pope Martin V was CHRISTIAN and gave Christian Europe the blessing to enslave black Africans in 1502 and King James II sent many ships with Africans slaves to Europe and the New world! So I ask you again to not talk about Jesus Christ and your god here when they have been attacking us for 400 years!

It’s obvious you an ignorant person who are spiritually and psychologically LOST. You are only bringing chaos in this BLACK community I can’t stand that, and I am here to ATTACK imposters like you [smiley=stop.gif] !

B.K

Before your god who ever he is made your Adam and eve Nubians already where at peace on earth

GEBESIS 2:10

Now the a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads. The name of the first is Pishon, it is the one which skirts the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. And the gold in that land was good. Bdellium and onyx stones are there. The name of the second river is Gihon, it is in the one which goes around the whole land of KUSH.

If I had known you was a European I wouldn’t even have written anything!!! Not because I don’t respect you, I just believe the Europeans should be with their own kind and the afrikans with theirs.

My apologies to SISTERS auset and kelani and who ever I offended

If the KKK is Christian, then you must be because they are almost as hateful as you are.  Maybe you should actually read the bible for yourself before you lump every religious faith into one basket.  You clearly don't have an understanding of the God of the bible, Christianity, or the bible.  You can't back up anything with scripture except some stray scripture that you pull out of the air.  That is the way that false teachers such as yourself work.  Christianity is growing wildly in africa, not because they hate africans, but because God loves them.  You are the hateful one and I believe it is clear to everyone else that it is you who are propetuating hate.  You can dig up everything that anyone else has done to the black man to justify your hatred, but the truth is that that is not what Christianity is.  You are talking about the non-Christian actions of a few misguided false religions.  Read the bible for yourself and you will see that everything that you have said about what Chrisitianity is about is not true.  My God is a God of love.  It appears as though yours is a God of hate.  It is precisely men like you who seek to hold down the african community by propetuating hatred, constantly digging up the past and never moving forward.  Christ offers every african eternal life and blessings with Him if they will simply accept what He did for them.  Jesus Christ died for the black man because He loves the black man.

I am not European.  I don't live in Europe.  You don't know what color I am, you don't know where I live.  It doesn't matter where I am from or what color I am.  Jesus Christ loves all of us the same.

  " There are people today around the world who have suffered similarly from european and european-american imperialism-aided and abetted by the leaders of Judaism and Christianity-who also actively engaged in slavery by sanctioning its institution through twisted quotations from their own versions of that which is called The Holy and Sacred Scriptures. "       Yosef A. A. ben-Jochannan

Why is that anytime an Afrikan defends their beliefs or tries to educate their people they are misnomered a hatemonger XFRO?

I can tell by your opinion YOU ARE NOT A BLACK PERSON, you don’t have the guts to say WHAT and WHO you are! You are a perfect example of someone who comes to oppress and exploit black folks with bible fables and falsities! I don’t have to deduce your race I am judging you with your European belief systems which are the most prejudicial I ever have seen! I don’t have time to draw scriptures form your poisonous book the bible, I already exposed the intolerance of Christians and Christianity and I’m talking from common sense! You serve no useful purpose in this BLACK AFRICAN website if I still was a moderator here I will ban you!

And be aware informed blacks are not HATEFUL we are just defensive, in fact it's the CURRENT White Supremacists, many of whom are CHRISTIANS, who worship racism and religious bigotry directed against black African peoples to rob our natural resources!!!!

[smiley=grin.gif] [smiley=grin.gif]..tata Jemba, I’m not mad at you but know sista Oshun Auset and I know this type of pathetic drivel always join BLACK AFRICAN message boards to put our peoples in full ignorance mode. They are racist troublemakers and they are not welcomed here, no respect to them!

Peace.

B.K

What the heck I couldn’t resist to show this deluded individual XFRODOBAGGINSX how really EVIL, BLOOD THIRSTY, MASTER OF DECEPTION, AND A LIAR his god YAWEH/JEHOVA is! But like most Christians he is too lazy or mentally challenged to read and study for himself.  

These scriptures were taken randomly by me just like his!

Exodus 22:29 “Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.”

Ezekiel 20:25-26 “Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good and judgments whereby they should not live; “
20:26 “And I polluted them in their own gifts in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.”

II Samuel 21.
21:6 Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the Lord in Gib’e-ah of Saul, whom the Lord did choose.
21:9 And he delivered them into the hands of the Gib’e-on-ites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.
21:10 And Riz’pah the daughter of A-i’ah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water dropped upon them out of heaven, and suffered neither the birds of the air to rest on them by day, nor the beasts of the field by night.

Here we read 7 men being murdered in cold blood in order to appease JEHOVA in hopes that HE will end a famine, it’s called human blood sacrifice!!!

More blood sacrifice:

Numbers 31:25 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
31:26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:
31:27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:
31:28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
31:29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.
31:30 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.
31:31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
31:32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,
31:33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,
31:34 And threescore and one thousand asses,
31:35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.
31:36 And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:
31:37 And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.
31:38 And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and twelve.
31:39 And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and one.
31:40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.

This excerp was taken from "The Handbook of Jewish Knowledge" by Nathan Ausubel; pages 302-303.

I am not Christian, or Musilm, or Jew, these imperialistic religions are detrimental to black Africans. It bothers me to respect these verses and messages (garbage) this is not our indigenous African heritage no!!!!

B.K

Kimia yaya kelani

Tata!!! Na bota nanu bana te [ [smiley=baby.gif]

Genesis 9: 20 to 24

And Noah began to be a farmer, and he planted a vineyards. Then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent. And ham the father of canaan, saw him the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. But shem and Japhteth took a garment, laid it on both there shoulders, and went backwards and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces where turned away, and they did not see their fathers nakedness. So when Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him.
Then he said: Cursed be Canaan a servant of servants he shall be to his brethrens. Blessed be the lord of Shem, and may Canaan be his servant may god enlarge Japheth, and may Canaan be his servant.

Genesis 10:6 to 11

The sons of ham where Kush, Mizraim, Put, Canaan. The sons of Kush were Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabtechah; and the sons of Raamah were Sheba and Dedan.  Cush begat Nimrod; he began to be a mighty man one on earth. He was a mighty hunter before the lord. And the beginning of his kingdom was babel, erech accad, and calneh, in the land of shiner. From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, calah, and resen between Nineveh and calah.

Ham and his descendent settled in Africa, Egypt which is now Jordan and Israel.
The land of shiner and Assyria were located east of Israel in what is now iraq.

This is as racist as it gets afrikans where borne to be slaves because ham who supposed to be our ancestor saw, Noah his father naked. The god of this scripture should have punished Noah for getting drunk, Noah is a very holy man indeed or is the Romans bibles god the devil himself.

Genesis 11: 1 to 9

Now the whole earth had one language and speech. And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of shiner, and they dwelt there. Then they said to one another (come let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly).
They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. And they said (come let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heaven; let us make s name fo our selves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth)
But the lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built.
And the lord said (indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. Come let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech).

And you should know the rest Frodo Baggins there is only one angel who was cast down from heaven with his friends in the roman scriptures and he is your lord, god doesn’t need help to confuse a bunch of people. And these people again supposed to be Nubians settling in a new land, your god sure is a loving god only to his people.
I don’t even believe for a second in this fantasy story that these people could be Nubians but I believe that the person who says (Come let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech).
Is a devil.

Please read the bible for your self@ frodobaggins

[smiley=2thumbsup.gif] [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

tata ezoloba oza mutu munene, pe oyebi eloko mingi! (I use "tata" to be correct about your position, you are a respectable black man).


You gave XFRODOBAGGINSX the scriptures he needs, now let's see how he will debate that LOL...

B.K

Kool  [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]everyone should get an overstanding of the bible
its the tool the europeans used to lock up nubian minds

First of all:

Exodus 22:29 “Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.”

He wasn't talking about killing the children, He was talking about giving them to service for the Lord.  

Secondly:

21:6 Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the Lord in Gib’e-ah of Saul, whom the Lord did choose.

This was a time of law in the land.  The men that were hanged were false ministers such as yourself and at that time, the punishment was death.  We are no longer under the law, but are under grace.  This is no longer required of false ministers such as yourself, so that can may demonstrate His grace.  

The rest of what you wrote seemed to be without point.  The other than to take up space.  The only comment that I will add is that they sacrificed animals before Jesus Christ came to die for our sins, as a symbol of Christ's death for us.  Now that Jesus Christ has come for all men, animal sacrifice is no longer needed.

This verse is speaking of Christ:

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

You keep labeling Christianity as a White religion or not African.  This is also untrue.  Christianity is not white nor is it black, it originated with the Jews, who lived extremely close to Africa.  God loves the black man and the white man.  Christ is not sent for one race, but for ALL RACES to come to Him for salvation.  You can follow a lie or you can follow the truth.  Jesus Christ is the truth.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(KJV)


You cannot get to heaven any other way.  All other ways lead to hell, which is eternal damnation.  Eternal torment in fire.

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend}
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mt 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

To all beloved Africans who would:

Accept Jesus Christ into your heart today and become a child of the true and living God.  He created all men black and white and all others.  God loves you and wants to save you and take you to heaven.  As children of God, you will share in eternal blessings with God as the bride of Christ.  There is no higher honor that I know of.  If you reject His Son, the punishment is hell.  That is the truth for everyone, black, white or any other race.  This is not about race, it is about Christ Jesus.  I am begging you to pray the prayer to God at the beginning of this post, mean it with all of your heart.  He will come into your life and give you peace and joy that you will never have otherwise, and He will take you to heaven with Him when you die.  

WHY YOU CANNOT REFUTE THE REVELATIONS AND SCRIPTURES THAT PROVE YOUR GOD IS WRONG TO BLACK CIVILIZATION? WHO OR WHAT ARE YOU? WHY YOU CANNOT ANSWER THIS BASIC QUESTION? YOU ARE A PETTY MISSIONARY, SUPERSTITIOUS, AND IGNORANT YOU HAVE NO POINT!!!!

B.K

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord.  He hasn't wronged the African people.  He loves them.  Any african who chooses Him has the same blessings as anyone from any other race.  Where has He been cruel to the Africans?  He is the creator of all things and knows everything there is to know about you and everyone else.  There is not anything that He does not know.
Stop saying that He hates the africans because He loves them.  God didn't cause people to do evil.  Those people will be judged harshly for their offenses, unless they repent.  Just as you have a chance to repent.

Ro 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Don't play with fire.  God wants to save you but He will judge you harshly if you reject Him.  

Jemba you offended nobody.

Kelani...I've been cracking up reading this thread.

Missionary man....Nobody wants to buy stock in Jesus Christ Inc. take your weak sales pitch elsewhere.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Introduction:

The central question for investigation in this study is, Was Jesus Christ a true figure of History? The question can, and must be, answered affirmatively for a considerable number of reasons. First and foremost, the four Gospels themselves can be demonstrated to be valid, trustworthy historical documents. That is, using the historical method fairly, as one would use the method on any other ancient document, one would discover that the four Gospels have better attestation than any other writing of antiquity. [1] However, this paper will dismiss the Gospel evidence, as solid as it is.

Furthermore, this paper will dismiss the Epistles of the New Testament, some of which even critical scholars accept as written by the traditional writers during the traditional periods of time. For example, I Corinthians, accepted by nearly all NT scholars as written by the historical person, Paul, [2] contains numerous references to Jesus Christ (a contemporary of Paul's). By avoiding the evidence of the New Testament, this paper will mute the cumulative testimony of 40,000 manuscripts - although one would be justified in submitting them first as the best evidence available.

Finally, this paper will refrain from engaging the statements made about Jesus by very early Christian writers who lived within the first century and one half after Jesus lived. This includes statements preserved from Clement of Rome (fl.ca .96), Ignatius (ca. 35-ca. 107), Papias (ca. 60-130), Polycarp (ca. 69-ca. 155), the Didache (late 1st, early 2nd c.), The Epistle of Barnabas (between A.D. 70&135), Quadratus (fl.ca. 124), Aristides (mid-2nd c.), Justin Martyr (ca. 100-ca.165), Hegesippus (2nd c.), Iranaeus (ca. 130-ca. 200), Tertullian (ca. 160-ca. 225), and Origen (ca. 185-ca. 254). [3] Note that there is no good reason to dismiss these statements. Just because these sources are all Christian does not invalidate them as witnesses. People sympathetic to a Person or cause are well capable of passing along accurate information. This is especially true when one considers two facts: (1) the above people all lived to within about a one-hundred and fifty years of Jesus Christ, and (2) they present the inquirer with a significant plurality of witnesses. If these same conditions were met by evidences of any other historical figure, the historical existence of that person would be unquestioned.

Thus, a considerable quantity of historical evidence will be discounted here, for the sake of the most hardened skeptic. Removing the New Testament, as well as early Christian writers, from consideration leaves the historical inquirer with two basic sources of information: secular Greek and Roman writers, and Jewish rabbis. Note, then that the sources we engage are manifold and varied in background, including both neutral and hostile witnesses. A hostile witness is especially important in establishing the existence of a historical figure. This paper will ultimately seek to answer the question, What can be known about Jesus if the entire New Testament did not exist?

I. The Secular Greek and Roman Writers


A. Julius Africanus (ca. 160-ca. 240), a Jerusalem-born Christian writer, recorded something written by the Samaritan-born historian, Thallus (ca. A.D. 52). Africanus, addressing the darkness during the crucifixion, states, "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun - unreasonably, it seems to me." [4]

1. The reason Africanus saw Thallus' explanation as unreasonable was because the Passover occurred during the full moon (there can be no solar eclipse, with the sun behind the moon when the moon is full, which necessitates the sun shining on the moon).
2. Note that Thallus did not deny the existence and crucifixion of Jesus . He was only trying to explain away the supernatural element in the crucifixion.

3. Finally, Thallus dates the crucifixion to the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar (about A.D.29).


B. Africanus and Origen both mention the Chronicles (volumes of history) written by a man named Phlegon. Africanus says Phlegon refers to the same eclipse, saying, "he records that in the time of Tiberius Caesar at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth. [5] Origen (ca. 185-ca. 254), defending a historical view of the earthquake and the darkness, said he was, "adducing the testimony of Phlegon, who relates that these events took place at the time when our Savior suffered." [6]

1. Note that both Africanus and Origen have knowledge of secular documents attesting to the historical crucifixion, together with written accounts of the earthquake and darkness.
2. A later, sixth century writer, Philopon, also states, "about this darkness . . . Phlegon recalls it in the Olympiads" [the title of Phlegon's history]. [7]


C. Flavius Josephus (ca. 37-ca. 100) was a native of Palestine, who became the most significant Jewish historian in the first century. There are two passages in Josephus that merit our attention.

1. In Josephus' The Antiquity of the Jews, book 18 paragraph 3 reads, Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day . . . and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. [8]

a. Note that the vocabulary and style of this paragraph are consistent with other passages in Josephus.
b. Even so, some question numerous segments of this statement, and contend that Josephus said part of it, and later Christians added the decidedly Christian portions. Even if this is true, historical Earle Cairnes notes that, "most scholars agree that this basic information just mentioned [that Jesus was a 'wise man' condemned to die on the cross by Pilate] is most likely a part of the original text." [9]


2. Josephus says that Aranus (Ananias], assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [10]

D. Pliny the Younger (62-ca. 113), was the governor of the Roman province of Bithynia. In about A.D. 112, he wrote a letter of inquiry to the emperor, Trajan. The letter requested the proper administration of handling cases involving Christians that came under his care. The letter is quite lengthy, so this paper will cite only the most crucial passages. [11]

1. Meanwhile, this is the course that I have adopted in the case of those brought before me as Christians. I ask them if they are Christians. If they admit it, I repeat the question a second and third time, threatening capital punishment; if they persist I sentence them to death.
2. All who denied that they were or had been Christians I considered should be discharged . . . especially because they cursed Christ, a thing which, it is said, genuine Christians cannot be induced to do.

3. [Those who denied their faith] all worshiped your image and the statues of the gods and cursed Christ.

4. [Christians declared] that on an appointed day they had been accustomed to meet before daybreak, and recite a hymn antiphonally to Christ, as to a god.

5. Trajan's response has also been preserved (he basically approved of Pliny's method).


E. Cornelius Tacitus (ca.60-ca.120) was a senator under the reign of Vespasian, and from 112-112 was proconsul of Asia. In his Annals, he explains how Nero handled the rumor that he himself set fire to Rome in A.D. 64:

"And so, to get rid of this rumor, Nero set up as the culprits and punished with the utmost refinement of cruelty a class hated for the abominations, who are commonly called Christians. Christus, from whom the name is derived, was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. Checked for the moment, this pernicious superstition again broke out, not only in Judea, the source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . ." [12]
a. The label, "pernicious superstition" can surely be taken as indirect and unconscious testimony to the belief of the early Church that Jesus rose from the dead.


F. Suetonius (ca. 75-160) was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House. Writing in about A.D. 120, he addressed the expulsion of Jews and Christians from Rome under the reign of Claudius in A.D. 49 (see Acts 18:2):

1. Since the Jews were continually making disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome. [13]

a. "Chrestus" is undoubtedly a variant of Christus.
b. The "disturbances" were probably the bickering between Jews and Christians.


2. Suetonius also addresses Nero's persecution of Christians: "punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a set of men adhering to a novel and mischievous superstition. . . ." [14]

G. Lucian of Samosata was a Greek satirist. Writing in about A.D. 170, Lucian said:

The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. [15]

H. Finally, the Syrian Mara Bar-Serapion, probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote from prison to this son sometime after A.D. 70. His letter endeavored to encourage his son to pursue wisdom. The complete paragraph is rather extended, but worth quoting at length:

What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: The Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; he lived on in the teaching of what he had given. [16]

II. The Jewish Rabbis
Introduction: There are a number of statements in the Talmud directed against Jesus. (The Talmud is a collection of rabbinical teachings collected over the centuries, with one version being completed about A.D. 400-425 (the Jerusalem Talmud), and another version completed about A.D. 500-550 (the Babylonian Talmud). [17]


A. In the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a, we find this statement,

It was taught: On the eve of Passover Yeshua (the Nazarene) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." [18]
1. Later in Sanhedrin 43a one finds this comment about Jesus: "Our rabbis taught: Yeshua had five disciples - Mattai, Nakkai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah." [19] Although much has been confused, what has been preserved is that Jesus was known by his Aramaic name, Yeshua, and that he had disciples. The commentary proceeds to develop elaborate puns, using the five fictitious names as a springboard (this explains why the names to not match up).


B. In the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 107b we find,

One day he (Rabbi Joshua) was reciting the Shema (Deut. 6:4) when Jesus came before him. He intended to receive him and made a sign to him. He (Jesus) thinking that it was to repel him, went up, put up a brick, and worshiped it . . . . And a Master has said, "Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic and led Israel astray." [20]
1. Note that both of these passages provide the name, "Jesus the Nazarene."

2. Note that rather than denying Jesus' miracles, these sources attribute them to magic (see Mark 3:22; Matt. 9:34; 12:24).

3. Note that these witnesses attest to Jesus' crucifixion ("hanged") on the eve of the Passover.


C. The Talmud also contains a number of stories centering on one Ben Pandera, according to which Jesus was the son of the Roman mercenary Pandera, "who begot a child with Joseph's adulterous wife, Mary, during her menstrual period." [21] Note that both of Jesus' parents are mentioned by name.
D. The Tosefta, a rabbinical document published about A.D. 220-230, says, "It happened with R. Elazar ben Damah, whom a serpent bit, that Jacob, a man of Kefar Soma, came to heal him in the name of Yeshua ben Pantera; but R. Ishamel did not let him." [22]

E. A couple of different rabbinical baraitot [23] state, "When King Janneus slew our Rabbis, Rabbi Joshua [ben Perahia] and Jesus fled to Alexandria of Egypt" where Jesus was later excommunicated and condemned for worshiping an idol (b. Sanh. 107b; b.Sota 47a). [24] (See the flight to Egypt in Matt. 2:13-15).

F. The rabbis express the hope that they will "not have a son or a disciple who burns his food in public [i.e., teaches heresy], like Jesus the Nazarene" (b. Sanh. 103a; b. Ber. 17a-b).

G. Rabbi Abbahu (late 3rd, early 4th century) is said to have warned, "If a man says to you, 'I am God,' he is a liar; or 'I am the son of man,' in the end he will regret it; or 'I will go up to heaven' - he that says it will not perform it" (y. Ta'an. 2.1).

H. Rabbi Aha (4th century) declares: "there was a man, the son of a woman, who would rise up and seek to make himself God, and cause the entire world to err . . . . If he says that he is God, he lies; and in the future he will cause to err - that he departs and returns in the end. He says, but will not do . . . . Alas, who shall live of that people that listens to that man who makes himself God?" (Yal. Simeoni on Num 23:7).

I. Explaining the resurrection of Jesus, one manuscript states, "He then went and raised Jesus by incantation" (b. Git. 57a).


III. Conclusion

A. Before formulating any conclusions, we must note that there are numerous other allusions to Jesus Christ, in both secular and sacred sources. For example, scholars are generally agreed that ancient rabbis referred to Jesus as "so-and-so," in order to show their contempt for him and avoid mentioning him by name. These references were not included in the above survey. Moreover, many times information about Christ can be known simply by observing what is said about Christians in the first two centuries. These references were also avoided in the above survey. Furthermore, a great deal is said about Jesus in quasi-Christian sources, such as the Gnostic writings found in Nag Hammadi Egypt in 1945 (which date back to the late 3rd, or early 4th centuries). Finally, the entire body of literature known as the Agrapha, New Testament Apocrypha, and New Testament Pseudepigrapha has been consciously neglected here. In other words, there is a wealth of information available that provide additional attestation of Jesus' life.
B. At the beginning of this study we posed the question, "What can be known about Jesus if the entire New Testament did not exist?" Limiting oneself just to the historical documents surveyed in this study, one can learn the following things about Jesus:


1. Jesus' natural parents were Joseph and Mary.
2. Jesus had cause to flee to Egypt.

3. Jesus was known to have originated in Nazareth, and thus was called, Jesus the Nazarene (he was also known by his Aramaic name, Yeshua, and by his Greek name, Christ).

4. Jesus had a brother, whose name was James.

5. Jesus had disciples who followed him, much like other rabbis of the time.

6. Jesus claimed to be God, and called himself by the title, Son of Man.

7. Pontius Pilate was the governor in charge of Jesus' trial, which took place during the reign of Tiberius Caesar.

8. Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover.

9. During the crucifixion, there was an earthquake and a darkening of the sun.

10. Jesus had followers who could not be induced to curse his name, even upon threat of death.

11. By the end of the first century, Jesus' followers were singing hymns in worship to him as God.

12. Jesus' followers would pray for people to be healed in the name of Jesus.

13. Rumors were circulating that this Jesus came back to life from the dead.

14. Secular writers scoffed at Jesus' followers, because they thought the followers were superstitious.


C. One cannot conclude this study, however, without stating what should be obvious by now. If a Christian encounters a skeptic who refuses to believe Jesus was a genuine figure of history, the Christian should ask two questions:

1. What other religious leader has more hard evidence of his historical existence? and
2. What other ancient personality from any background has more evidence of his historical existence?

3. There is no way to avoid the conclusion that there is more evidence for the historical genuiness of Jesus Christ than any figure of the ancient world. If we are going to discount Jesus' existence, we have no alternative but to take a position of total historical skepticism.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTES:


[1] See, "Why Should I Listen to Stories about Jesus Instead of to Other Sacred Texts," pp. 4.1-4.24 in these notes. Also, see John W. Montgomery, History and Christianity: A Vigorous, Convincing Presentation of the Evidence for a Historical Jesus (Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1955).
[2] See Gordon Fee, "The First Epistle to the Corinthians," NICNT, 15.

[3] For a partial listing of early patristic citations, see Josh McDowell and Bill Wilson, He Walked Among Us: Evidence for the Historical Jesus (Nashville,: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1993), chapter 4.

[4] Julius Africanus, Chronography 18.1, quoted in Josh McDowell and Bill Wilson, He Walked Among Us, 35.

[5] Africanus, Chronography 18.1, quoted in Josh McDowell and Bill Wilson, He Walked Among Us, 36.

[6] Origen, Against Celsus 2.59, McDowell and Wilson, 36.

[7] McDowell and Wilson, 36.

[8] The Works of Josephus, translated by William Whiston (Peabody: Hendrickson Publishers, 1987) 480.

[9] Quoted by McDowell and Wilson, 45.

[10] Josephus, Antiquities, 20.9.1, Whiston, 538.

[11] From Henry Bettenson, ed. Documents of the Christian Church (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1963) 3-4.

[12] Bettenson, Documents, 2.

[13] Ibid.

[14] Bettenson, Documents, 2.

[15] Lucian, The Death of Peregrine 11-13, quoted by McDowell and Wilson, 53.

[16] Quoted from a Syriac manuscript in the British Museum by McDowell and Wilson, 54.

[17] Craig A. Evans, Noncanonical Writings and New Testament Interpretation (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1992) 126.

[18] Edwin M. Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament: What Is the Evidence?" Jesus Under Fire, Michael Wilkins and J.P. Moreland, Eds. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1995) 214.

[19] McDowell and Wilson, He Walked Among Us, 65.

[20] Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament," 214.

[21] Ibid.

[22] McDowell and Wilson, He Walked Among Us, 66.

[23] A baraita (singular, baraitot plural) was a rabbinical writing separate from the Mishna, the body of rabbinical writings published about A.D. 200. The word baraita is Aramaic for, "standing outside." In a reference (e.g. b. Sanh.), the 'b.' stands for baraita.

[24] Evans, Noncanonical Writings, 144. All of the following citations step from this source, pp. 144-146.



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We're sick and tired of your bull$#*! game, Die and go to heaven in Jesus' name.

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said; (Father, the hour has come glorify your son, that your son also may glorify you, as you have given him authority over all flesh, that should give eternal life to as many as you have given him.
And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true god, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I have glorified you on the earth. I have finished my work which you have given me to do. And now, O father, glorify me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was.

Is he god or who was hearing his prayers in heaven at the time?
There was an empty seat in the heaven because Jesus is the Christian god
So he himself was praying to nobody.
If we have to go to Jesus Christ to go to this Christian heaven then where was the people who where born before Jesus before the time of Adam and eve going to?

Genesis 4:13

And Cain said to the lord, ( my punishment is greater than I can bear! Surely you have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on earth, and it will happen that anyone who shall find me will kill me).
And the lord said to Cain, (there for whoever shall kill Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold) and the lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone who finds him should kill him.

God is a three part being.  God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.  The Father was in heaven, the Son was on earth, and His Spirit is everywhere at once.  It also dwells inside of believer's in a special way.  It resides in heaven.  Jesus Christ was praying to the Father.  They are three different aspects of God, yet they are one mind.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(KJV)


Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(KJV)

Jesus Christ is the Word.  Jesus Christ is God.

Jesus said:

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Jesus declares to philip that He is the Father:

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

They exist in three sepret forms, yet they are one God.  Just as an egg is made up of a shell, a yolk, and the white, God is three parts just the same.

The people who were born before Jesus Christ either went to hell or they went to paradise.  Paradise was the place that the believer's went until the sacrifice of Jesus Christ's blood was presented to the Father in heaven.  

Abraham's bosom is a part of paradise.  Abraham went there and here is a story about this place.

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

John 2:28 to 3

And now, little children abide in him, that when he appears, we may have confidence
And not be ashamed before him at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you that everyone who practices righteousness is born of him.
Behold what manner of love the father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of god. Therefore the world does not know as, because it did not know him. Beloved know we are children of god; and it has not yet been revealed, we shall be like him, for we shall see as he is. And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

Jesus is speaking about the father or love, every quality a human being should have as the almighty has in him or her.


Mathew 6:22

The lamp of the body is the eyes. If there fore your eyes is good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are bad, whole body will be full of darkness.
If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness.

Jesus which is not his real name is speaking about the Holy Ghost or the soul, your soul sees through the eyes and we only choose to do what we see.

We human beings are made of the spirit the soul and love, which all human being should have because we are made in the image of the angels who made as.
The soul or the holy ghost is not of this world, the spirit is the son of man or the flesh and the father is an easy way of him explaining one of the Almighty’s aspect to his very simple minded people the Israelites of the twelve tribes of their ancestors. He refers to his people as babes or children many times in the Arian bible.

Mathew 15:21 to 28

Then Jesus went out from there and parted the region of the tyre and sidon. And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to him saying ( have mercy O lord, son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed).
But he answered her not a word.
And his disciples came and urged him, saying (send her away, for she cries out after as) He answered and said (I was not sent except to the lost ship of the house of Israel)
Then she came and worshiped him, saying (lord help me!)
But he answered and said (it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs). And she said (yes, lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters table)
Then Jesus answered and said to her,( O woman, of great faith! Let it be to you as you desire) and the daughter was healed from that very hour.

Jesus or noel which is the name the angel gave to his parents to give to him at birth. The name Jesus was given to him by the Romans after his death.
Noel could not heal the woman for he would be breaking the rules which were given to him from a higher ranking leader. So he said to her I can’t lift a finger to help you because you are not an Israelite( white with brown eyes and black hair) but because of the faith you have Shawn in me you can touch me and heal yourself.


   

"Heaven is Between a Black Woman's Legs."

-Yosef AA ben-Jochannan

(http://www.crystalinks.com/nuit.gif)
(http://www.crystalinks.com/nutarch.jpg)

In one myth Nut gives birth to the Sun-god daily and he passes over her body until he reaches her mouth at sunset. He then passed into her mouth and through her body and is reborn the next morning. Another myth described the sun as sailing up her legs and back in the Atet (Matet) boat until noon, when he entered the Sektet boat and continued his travels until sunset.

The bible was written by God through 40 men in 3 languages over a 1,500 year period. These men lived in different parts of the world, some were rich, some were poor, some were educated, some were not, most didn't know each other, nor did they have access to the other's writings and yet it fits together as if it were written by one person. It was written by God. It has no errors or contradictions. It is the Word of God. The bible is accurate in matters of Science, History, and all matters of life.
There are countless prophecies which have been predicted and fulfilled perfectly in scripture.  Many of these prophecies were written hundreds or even thousands of years before they were fulfilled.
Here are some prophecies concerning Jesus Christ's first comming:

FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=jesus-vel-nub2.bmp (257366 bytes)" Prophecies of the Old Testament
Fulfilled in Jesus Christ
Prophecies of the OT Fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah and His church
a total of 1,093
50 Specific Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus
The Jewish Mystery
The Messiah, the Christ in Greek
Links
Prophecies of the OT Fulfilled in Jesus Christ:
There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of then made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.
George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros.
Another mathematician, Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, claims the odds of being fulfilled only 60 of them by the only person who claimed to be the Son of God, and who died on a "tree" on Calvary, and who rose the 3rd day are astronomical!... not just one in one trillion, but one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros.
And still more, because every page of the Old Testament talks and prophecies and characterizes the coming of the Messiah, the Christ in Greek... so, there are actually thousands of prophecies on the coming of the Messiah, all of them fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ and His Church as they are shown in this site.
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. (Jn.1:45)
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me (Jn.5:46).
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. (Lk.24:27)
He said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. (Lk.24:44).
He told them, This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, (Lk.24:46).
Prophecies and types of each book of the Bible fulfilled in Jesus Christ and His Church, a total of 1,093
92 Prophecies of the Psalms fulfilled in Jesus Christ
121 Prophecies of Isaiah fulfilled in Jesus Christ

Here are just 50 of those thousand Prophecies:
Ancestors:

1- The "seed of a woman": Genesis 3:15.... Galatians 4:4.
Jesus was born of Virgin Mary without any man involved in His conception (Is.7:14, Mat.1:23, Lk.1:27).
- Gen.3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
- Gal.4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law. (Luk.2:7; Rev.12:5)
2- Descendent of Abraham: Genesis 12:3, 18:18.... Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.
- Gen. 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. (Gen. 12:3)
- Act. 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed." (Mt.1:1; Lk.3:34)

3- Descendent of Isaac: Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34.
- Gen.17:19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."
-Mt.1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. (Lk.3:34)
4- Descendent of Jacob: Numbers 24:17...... Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2.
- Num.24:17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth.
- Lk.3:34 The son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor. (Mt.1:2)
5-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.
- Gen.49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.
- Lk.3:33 The son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah. (Mt.1:2-3)
6- Hair of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7.... Luke 1:32-33.
- Isa.9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. (Isa.11:1-5; 2Sam.7:13)
- Luk.1:32-33: He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Mt.1:1, 1:6)
Birth and Childhood:
7- Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2.... Matthew 2:1.... Luke 2:4-7.
- Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.
- Mt.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. (Lk.2:4-7)
8- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18.... Luke 1:26-35.
- Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
- Mt.1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Lk.1:26-35)
9- Time of his birth: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1:
- Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
- Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7)
- Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
10- Slaughter of the Innocent children: Jeremiah 31:15.... Matthew 2:16-18.
- Jer.31:15 This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
- Mt.2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. (Mt 2:16-18)
11- Flight to Egypt: Hosea 11:1.... Matthew 2:14-15.
- Hos.11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son
- Mt.2:14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt. (Mt 2:15)
12- He shall be called a Nazarene: Judges 13:5.... Matthew 2:23.
- Jud.13:5 for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God
- Mt.2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene
Passion:
13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9.... John 12:13-14.
- Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)
- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)
14- Entry through the "Golden Gate", that shall be shut for ever after his entrance: Ezekiel 44:1-2.... Mark 11:7-8.
On Palm Sunday Jesus entered Jerusalem through the Golden Gate. When you go to Jerusalem look at the Golden Gate, it is shut with stone and cement, and with a Muslim cemetery in its front, through which a Jewish Messiah will never pass.
- Ez.44:1-2 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD , the God of Israel, has entered through it.
- Mk.11:7-8 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields.
15- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9... Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.
- Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
- Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)
- Zec.11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)
- Mt.26:15 And asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10)
16- Money to be returned for a potter's field: Zechariah 11:13.... Matthew 27:6-7.
- Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
- Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)
17- Judas's position to be taken by another: Psalm 109:7-8.... Acts 1:18-20.
- Ps.109:7-8 When he is tried, let him be found guilty, and may his prayers condemn him. May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership
- Act.1:18-20 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) "For, " said Peter, "It is written in the book of Psalms, "'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "'May another take his place of leadership.'" (Ac 1:16-17)
18- Accused by false witnesses: Psalms .27:12, 35:11.... Mt 26:60-61, Mk.14:57.
- Ps.27:12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence. (Ps.35:11)
- Mt.26:60-61 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two men came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.'"
19- Silent to accusations: Isaiah 53:7.... Matthew 26:62-63, Mark.15:4-5.
- Isa.53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. (Ps.38:13-14)
- Mt 26:62-63 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!" (Mt 27:12-14, Mk.15:4-5)
20 - Spat and struck: Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.
- Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
- Mk.14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him. (Mt.26:27, Mk.15:17; Jn 19:1-3; 18:22)
21- Hated without reason: Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5.... John.15:24-25.
- Ps 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. (Ps.35:19, 109:3-5)
- Jn.15:23-25 He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason."
22- Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing: Psalm 22:18... Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)
- Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).
23- Crucified, "pierced through hands and feet": Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16.... Matthew 27:35, John 20:27.
- Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.
- Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus)... he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (Jn.19:37, 20:27)
24- Crucified with malefactors: Isaiah 53:12.... Mark 15:27-28.
- Isa.53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
- Mt 27:38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Mk 15:27-28; Lk 23:33)
25- Agonized in Thirst: Psalm 22:15.... John 19:28.
- Ps.22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
- Jn.19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
26- Given gall and vinegar: Psalm 69:21.... Matthew 27:34, 48, John 19:19.
- Ps.69:21 They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
- Mat.27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink (Jn.19:29, Mat.27:48).
27- No bones broken: Psalm 34:20.... John 19:32-36.
- Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)
- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
28- His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10.... John 19:34.
- Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
- Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1.... Matthew 27:46.
- Ps.22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
- Mat.27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
30- Vicarious Sacrifice: Isaiah 53:4-5, 6, 12.... Matthew 8:16-17, Romans 4:25, 5:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:3.
- Isa.53:4-5 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Is. 53:6, 12)
- Mt.8:16-17 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases." (Ro 4:25, 5:6-8, 1Cor 15:3)
31- Buried with the rich: Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60.
- Isa.53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
- Mt.27:57-60 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away
32- Deserted by his followers: Zechariah 13:7.... Mark 14:27.
- Zec.13:7 smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
- Mk.14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
33- Time of his death: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1, Matthew 2:1:
- Doing the proper computations, the Messiah was supposed to die on April 3, of the year 33 AC (Open Bible pag.833)
34- Resurrection of Jesus: Hosea 6:2, Psalms 16:10, 49:15..... Luke 24:6-7, Mark.16:6-7.
- Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
- Lk.24:6-7 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
35- Other dead raised with Him: Isaiah 26:19, Ezekiel 37:7-10..... Matthew 27:52-53.
- Isa.26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
- Ez.37:7-10 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
- Mat.27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
36- Ascension to Heaven: Psalms 68:18, 24:3.....Lk 24:50-51, Acts 1:11, Mk.16:19.
- Ps.68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
- Ps.24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
- Lk 24:50-51 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven
- Act.1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
37- Christ at the Right hand of the Father: Psalm 110:1..... Hebrews 1:2,3.
- Ps.110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
- Heb.1:2,3 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Ministry:
38- The way prepared by John the Baptist: Isaiah 40:3,5.... John 1:23, Luke 3:3-6.
- Isa.40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
- Jn.1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah
39- Preceded by a forerunner: Mal.3:1, Luk.7:24-27.
40- Preceded by Elijah: Mal.4:5-6, Matt.11:13-14.
41- Declared the Son of God: Ps.2:7, Matt.3:17.
42- Galilean Ministry: Is.9:1-2, Matt.4:13-16.
43- Speaks in Parables: Ps.78:2-4, Matt.13:34-35.
44- A Prophet: Deut.18:15, Jn.6:14, Acts 3:20-22.
45- Priest after the Order of Melchizedek: Ps.110:4, Heb.5:5-6.
46- To bind up the brokenhearted: Is.61:1-2, Luk.4:18-19.
47- Rejected by his own people, the Jews: Is.53:3, John 1:11.
48- Not believed: Is.53:1, John 12:37.
49- Adored by infants: Ps.8:2, Matt.21:15--16.
50- Anointed and eternal: Ps.45:6-7, Heb.1:8-12.      

Think about it. Could Sam write a book in California, and Bill write a book in Canada, and Ralf write a book in Mexico and it fit together as one book? The bible did this 40 times, 66 books! It's God's word.

The letters inscribed in the Pope's mitre are these: Vicarius Filii Dei, which is the Latin for the Vicar of the Son of God. Catholics hold that the church which is a visible society must have a visible head. Christ, before His ascension into heaven, appointed St. Peter to act as His representative. Upon the death of Peter the man who succeeded to the office of Peter as Bishop of Rome, was recognized as the head of the Church. Hence to the Bishop of Rome, as head of the Church, was given the title "Vicar of Christ."

Enemies of the Papacy denounce this title as a malicious assumption. But the Bible informs us that Christ did not only give His Church authority to teach, but also to rule. Laying claim to the authority to rule in Christ's spiritual kingdom, in Christ's stead, is not a whit more malicious than laying claim to the authority to teach in Christ's name. And this every Christian minister does.

I am not a Catholic and do not believe many of their false teachings.  I do believe that the Catholic church is the great whore mentioned in revelation.


Re 17:1 ¶ And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Re 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
(KJV)

The Nicene council of the roman church put together a book which we know call the bible. Please go read about it instead of just believing it, the sheep cannot lead the sheep’s or they will all be food for wolfs but shepherd can lead the flock even if he has a pact with the wolf.    

...

PROVING THE BIBLE AND THE CHURCH TRUSTWORTHY
Assume neither is trustworthy.

It is the case that an historical person named Jesus existed.
We know what he taught from the evidence of witnesses, some are in a book called Scripture, but some are not part of that book.
Jesus apparently claimed he would be raised from the dead. His followers claim that he was raised from the dead. This doesn't mean he was.
His followers were so adamant that he had been raised from the dead that they were willing to suffer torture and death rather than recant.
The form of death everyone agrees he underwent was extremely public, and Jesus was known to be a widely recognized person. It is highly unlikely that his enemies would have allowed the wrong man to be killed, and the form of death (crucifixion) was such that it is very highly unlikely that he could have faked it. The Romans tended to be quite good at killing their man. Thus, Jesus almost certainly did die on the cross. Now, it is extremely unusual for literally hundreds of people to stick to a story that is false, especially when they are not only threatened with death, but know death is a definite fact awaiting them because of the story they are telling. We have a very high probability that Jesus was crucified, and a very high probability that the witnesses saw what they said they saw. Resurrection probably happened - what he claimed would happen came true.
This Jesus person claimed to establish a church. We have historical evidence of a church. Tacitus, Josephus, Seutonius, and Pliny the Younger all vouch for the existence of Christ and his Church.  We can show a line of unbroken succession of leaders of this church and people in this church. We have a high probability that these events happened - the only evidence against is incredulity.
The Church witnesses which ancient books are the most trustworthy (i.e., Scripture) and Christ said the church was a good witness.


The Christian and Catholic bibles are NOT the same.  

Click on this link or cut n' paste it into your browser:

http://www.spiritrestoration.org/Church/Research%20History%20and%20Great%20Links/Hebrew%20and%20Christian%20Bibles.htm

(http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/savior11.jpg)
Bacchus(LATIN)/Dionysus crucified; this 3rd Century amulet predates images of Crucified Christ. There were 15 others.

I'm not even going to touch the issue of the church being 'trustworthy' to African and other non-European people. That one is just to easy...

Excuse me but no one is saying that crucifixion did not predate Jesus Christ's own crucifixion.  What you have just said to me is like saying that my friend didn't die in a car accident since car accidents were around before her death.  Yes people were crucified before Jesus Christ was.  The difference is that HE was the Son of God.  They were not.

Yenge Muntu Kelani


Maybe it’s just going to disappear like if it was never there??

But I would have a problem with that because I welcome every post as it’s just a learning experience for me and any one else who chooses to read or participate. If you read this post for example, you will learn that religion turns people into fanatics making the person he/she abandon reasoning and common sense.

If you just make the topic or post disappear then people will loose the chance to see how the bible locks a persons mind.

Mbote na yo tata Jemba,

You are wrong, you don’t even know who and what is XFRODOBAGGINSX. How can you have respect for someone who is not comfortable saying who or what he is? He is WHITE, believe me they have a way of posting message on boards... don’t you see it? I personally feel that white missionary bible thumpers who say blacks are "racists" for questioning Christians and the bible should not be allowed on this site. How long do you feel we are forced to debate with them about Christianity… who have been imposed on us as a way of controlling black people in the first place?!!!

Whites whether they approach as the "Rastas" missionary or the extremist will NEVER share our views, share our opinions, and share our experiences.... it’s embarrassing for you to give them your attention, you waste your time. I agree that we have to identify the superstitious and ignorant ones, but then BRING THEM OUT or many will try at every hand to break this black website or community.

You are new here. You don’t have my experience, but you will see the drama these reptiles bring when you give them ANY sort of latitude. Live and learn!

B.K

Again you are wrong. This type of thread is constantly rearing its ugly head on this site. Whites are obsessed with miseducating black people with the bible. I think you didn't read the many threads obviously showing it! Surely, you didn’t.

B.K

Like I have said before, there are millions of BLACK Christians in the world.  To say that it is a white man's religion is a joke.  It was not founded by a white man, it was founded by a Jew.  There are just as many Asian Chrisians are there are White Christians.  There are probably more Latino Christians than there are white Christians.  You are so worried about weather it is a "white" religion or not, that you could care less if it is the truth or not.  It is believed by people of every race, in nearly every country in the world.  God's truth extends all racial boundies.

2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

God loves the Black man.  Don't be deceived.  Truth is truth.  

You think I am going to waste my time debating your BS? Grow the [censored] up and stop preaching. Nobody cares.

B.K

Time???



I just write what I have been taught hoping anyone that reads will learn something new. I learned something new from sister oshu_auset on this post and I am reading and investigating some of doctor ben jochannans books. Didn’t you learn anything new @Sister Kelani?





Yesu Aza Prophet ya ba Mindele  

FYI... Bacchus/Dionysus is a Greco-Roman god and savior(not a historical figure) and his accompanying myth says he was crucified, rose after three days...was also referred to as "the son of God" ect...and so on...Sound familiar?

The MYTH is repeated at least 16 times. Check

Literalists kill me.

My posts on this thread are much more for others than for you. I don't expect you to admit historical facts or greater spiritual truths. . Blind faith and the (I have the only way and truth) arrogance taught by X-tianity(a manifestation of it's Constantinian and colonial aculturation) prevent this in most cases.

<sub>The philosophers of the ancient world were the masters of Spiritual Truth. They were mystics not researchers. The great Greek philosopher Pythagoras, for example, is remembered today for his mathematical work, but few people know him as he actually was—a mystic who many believed was able to  still the winds and raise the dead.

At the heart of the Mysteries were myths concerning a dying savior/gad who was resurrected.  This savior/god was known by many different names. He is who the  great mythologist Joseph Campbell called "The Hero of a Thousand Faces."  In Egypt he was Osiris, in Greece Dionysus, in Asia Minor Attis, in Syria Adonis, in Italy Bacchus, in Persia Mithras. all these myths are telling the story of the same mythical being..  Many scholars use the combined name Osiris-Dionysus when referring to this specific Mystery tradition.

From the fifth century BC philosophers such as Xenophanes and Empedodes were concerned that many people were  taking the stories of the gods and goddesses as literally true. They knew that they were allegories of human spiritual experiences. The myths of Osiris-Dionysus are not be understood as historical tales, but as a symbolic narratives which encode the mystical teachings of the Ancient Wisdom. Because of this, although the details were developed and adapted over time by different cultures, the myth of Osiris-Dionysus has remained essentially the same.

The various myths of the different savior/gods of the Ancient Mysteries share what the  Joseph Campbell called “the same anatomy.” With these different myths it is possible to see both their uniqueness and fundamental sameness.  On the face of it they look very different, yet they are essentially the same story of the savior/god of the Pagan Mysteries.

The more you study the various versions of the myth of Osiris-Dionysus, the more it will became obvious that the story of Jesus has all the characteristics of this perennial tale. Event by event,  Jesus’ supposed biography was constructed from mythic motifs previously relating to Pagan gods and saviors.  They are:

¶ Osiris-Dionysus is God made flesh, the savior and “Son of God.”

¶ His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin.

¶ He is born in a cave or stable on December 25 before three shepherds.

¶ He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.

¶ He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.

¶ He rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him.

¶ He dies at Easter-time as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.

¶ After his death he descends to hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heaven in glory.

¶ His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.

¶ His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolize his body and blood

http://www.aznewage.com/rootsofchristianity.htm</sub>

Your full of it.  Jesus Christ was predicted to come 1,500 years before He came.  Maybe they copied their lies from the bible, like alot of other false religions do.  

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. {everlasting: Heb. the days of eternity}
(KJV)

This was written hundreds of years before Christ even came.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. {shall call: or, thou, O virgin, shalt call}
(KJV)

This was written hundreds of years before Christ came.

Introduction:  

The central question for investigation in this study is, Was Jesus Christ a true figure of History? The question can, and must be, answered affirmatively for a considerable number of reasons. First and foremost, the four Gospels themselves can be demonstrated to be valid, trustworthy historical documents. That is, using the historical method fairly, as one would use the method on any other ancient document, one would discover that the four Gospels have better attestation than any other writing of antiquity. [1] However, this paper will dismiss the Gospel evidence, as solid as it is.  

Furthermore, this paper will dismiss the Epistles of the New Testament, some of which even critical scholars accept as written by the traditional writers during the traditional periods of time. For example, I Corinthians, accepted by nearly all NT scholars as written by the historical person, Paul, [2] contains numerous references to Jesus Christ (a contemporary of Paul's). By avoiding the evidence of the New Testament, this paper will mute the cumulative testimony of 40,000 manuscripts - although one would be justified in submitting them first as the best evidence available.  

Finally, this paper will refrain from engaging the statements made about Jesus by very early Christian writers who lived within the first century and one half after Jesus lived. This includes statements preserved from Clement of Rome (fl.ca .96), Ignatius (ca. 35-ca. 107), Papias (ca. 60-130), Polycarp (ca. 69-ca. 155), the Didache (late 1st, early 2nd c.), The Epistle of Barnabas (between A.D. 70&135), Quadratus (fl.ca. 124), Aristides (mid-2nd c.), Justin Martyr (ca. 100-ca.165), Hegesippus (2nd c.), Iranaeus (ca. 130-ca. 200), Tertullian (ca. 160-ca. 225), and Origen (ca. 185-ca. 254). [3] Note that there is no good reason to dismiss these statements. Just because these sources are all Christian does not invalidate them as witnesses. People sympathetic to a Person or cause are well capable of passing along accurate information. This is especially true when one considers two facts: (1) the above people all lived to within about a one-hundred and fifty years of Jesus Christ, and (2) they present the inquirer with a significant plurality of witnesses. If these same conditions were met by evidences of any other historical figure, the historical existence of that person would be unquestioned.  

Thus, a considerable quantity of historical evidence will be discounted here, for the sake of the most hardened skeptic. Removing the New Testament, as well as early Christian writers, from consideration leaves the historical inquirer with two basic sources of information: secular Greek and Roman writers, and Jewish rabbis. Note, then that the sources we engage are manifold and varied in background, including both neutral and hostile witnesses. A hostile witness is especially important in establishing the existence of a historical figure. This paper will ultimately seek to answer the question, What can be known about Jesus if the entire New Testament did not exist?  

I. The Secular Greek and Roman Writers  


A. Julius Africanus (ca. 160-ca. 240), a Jerusalem-born Christian writer, recorded something written by the Samaritan-born historian, Thallus (ca. A.D. 52). Africanus, addressing the darkness during the crucifixion, states, "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun - unreasonably, it seems to me." [4]  

1. The reason Africanus saw Thallus' explanation as unreasonable was because the Passover occurred during the full moon (there can be no solar eclipse, with the sun behind the moon when the moon is full, which necessitates the sun shining on the moon).  
2. Note that Thallus did not deny the existence and crucifixion of Jesus . He was only trying to explain away the supernatural element in the crucifixion.  

3. Finally, Thallus dates the crucifixion to the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar (about A.D.29).  


B. Africanus and Origen both mention the Chronicles (volumes of history) written by a man named Phlegon. Africanus says Phlegon refers to the same eclipse, saying, "he records that in the time of Tiberius Caesar at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth. [5] Origen (ca. 185-ca. 254), defending a historical view of the earthquake and the darkness, said he was, "adducing the testimony of Phlegon, who relates that these events took place at the time when our Savior suffered." [6]  

1. Note that both Africanus and Origen have knowledge of secular documents attesting to the historical crucifixion, together with written accounts of the earthquake and darkness.  
2. A later, sixth century writer, Philopon, also states, "about this darkness . . . Phlegon recalls it in the Olympiads" [the title of Phlegon's history]. [7]  


C. Flavius Josephus (ca. 37-ca. 100) was a native of Palestine, who became the most significant Jewish historian in the first century. There are two passages in Josephus that merit our attention.  

1. In Josephus' The Antiquity of the Jews, book 18 paragraph 3 reads, Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day . . . and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. [8]  

a. Note that the vocabulary and style of this paragraph are consistent with other passages in Josephus.  
b. Even so, some question numerous segments of this statement, and contend that Josephus said part of it, and later Christians added the decidedly Christian portions. Even if this is true, historical Earle Cairnes notes that, "most scholars agree that this basic information just mentioned [that Jesus was a 'wise man' condemned to die on the cross by Pilate] is most likely a part of the original text." [9]  


2. Josephus says that Aranus (Ananias], assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [10]  

D. Pliny the Younger (62-ca. 113), was the governor of the Roman province of Bithynia. In about A.D. 112, he wrote a letter of inquiry to the emperor, Trajan. The letter requested the proper administration of handling cases involving Christians that came under his care. The letter is quite lengthy, so this paper will cite only the most crucial passages. [11]  

1. Meanwhile, this is the course that I have adopted in the case of those brought before me as Christians. I ask them if they are Christians. If they admit it, I repeat the question a second and third time, threatening capital punishment; if they persist I sentence them to death.  
2. All who denied that they were or had been Christians I considered should be discharged . . . especially because they cursed Christ, a thing which, it is said, genuine Christians cannot be induced to do.  

3. [Those who denied their faith] all worshiped your image and the statues of the gods and cursed Christ.  

4. [Christians declared] that on an appointed day they had been accustomed to meet before daybreak, and recite a hymn antiphonally to Christ, as to a god.  

5. Trajan's response has also been preserved (he basically approved of Pliny's method).  


E. Cornelius Tacitus (ca.60-ca.120) was a senator under the reign of Vespasian, and from 112-112 was proconsul of Asia. In his Annals, he explains how Nero handled the rumor that he himself set fire to Rome in A.D. 64:  

"And so, to get rid of this rumor, Nero set up as the culprits and punished with the utmost refinement of cruelty a class hated for the abominations, who are commonly called Christians. Christus, from whom the name is derived, was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. Checked for the moment, this pernicious superstition again broke out, not only in Judea, the source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . ." [12]  
a. The label, "pernicious superstition" can surely be taken as indirect and unconscious testimony to the belief of the early Church that Jesus rose from the dead.  


F. Suetonius (ca. 75-160) was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House. Writing in about A.D. 120, he addressed the expulsion of Jews and Christians from Rome under the reign of Claudius in A.D. 49 (see Acts 18:2):  

1. Since the Jews were continually making disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome. [13]  

a. "Chrestus" is undoubtedly a variant of Christus.  
b. The "disturbances" were probably the bickering between Jews and Christians.  


2. Suetonius also addresses Nero's persecution of Christians: "punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a set of men adhering to a novel and mischievous superstition. . . ." [14]  

G. Lucian of Samosata was a Greek satirist. Writing in about A.D. 170, Lucian said:  

The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. [15]  

H. Finally, the Syrian Mara Bar-Serapion, probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote from prison to this son sometime after A.D. 70. His letter endeavored to encourage his son to pursue wisdom. The complete paragraph is rather extended, but worth quoting at length:  

What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: The Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; he lived on in the teaching of what he had given. [16]  

II. The Jewish Rabbis  
Introduction: There are a number of statements in the Talmud directed against Jesus. (The Talmud is a collection of rabbinical teachings collected over the centuries, with one version being completed about A.D. 400-425 (the Jerusalem Talmud), and another version completed about A.D. 500-550 (the Babylonian Talmud). [17]  


A. In the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a, we find this statement,  

It was taught: On the eve of Passover Yeshua (the Nazarene) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." [18]  
1. Later in Sanhedrin 43a one finds this comment about Jesus: "Our rabbis taught: Yeshua had five disciples - Mattai, Nakkai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah." [19] Although much has been confused, what has been preserved is that Jesus was known by his Aramaic name, Yeshua, and that he had disciples. The commentary proceeds to develop elaborate puns, using the five fictitious names as a springboard (this explains why the names to not match up).  


B. In the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 107b we find,  

One day he (Rabbi Joshua) was reciting the Shema (Deut. 6:4) when Jesus came before him. He intended to receive him and made a sign to him. He (Jesus) thinking that it was to repel him, went up, put up a brick, and worshiped it . . . . And a Master has said, "Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic and led Israel astray." [20]  
1. Note that both of these passages provide the name, "Jesus the Nazarene."  

2. Note that rather than denying Jesus' miracles, these sources attribute them to magic (see Mark 3:22; Matt. 9:34; 12:24).  

3. Note that these witnesses attest to Jesus' crucifixion ("hanged") on the eve of the Passover.  


C. The Talmud also contains a number of stories centering on one Ben Pandera, according to which Jesus was the son of the Roman mercenary Pandera, "who begot a child with Joseph's adulterous wife, Mary, during her menstrual period." [21] Note that both of Jesus' parents are mentioned by name.  
D. The Tosefta, a rabbinical document published about A.D. 220-230, says, "It happened with R. Elazar ben Damah, whom a serpent bit, that Jacob, a man of Kefar Soma, came to heal him in the name of Yeshua ben Pantera; but R. Ishamel did not let him." [22]  

E. A couple of different rabbinical baraitot [23] state, "When King Janneus slew our Rabbis, Rabbi Joshua [ben Perahia] and Jesus fled to Alexandria of Egypt" where Jesus was later excommunicated and condemned for worshiping an idol (b. Sanh. 107b; b.Sota 47a). [24] (See the flight to Egypt in Matt. 2:13-15).  

F. The rabbis express the hope that they will "not have a son or a disciple who burns his food in public [i.e., teaches heresy], like Jesus the Nazarene" (b. Sanh. 103a; b. Ber. 17a-b).  

G. Rabbi Abbahu (late 3rd, early 4th century) is said to have warned, "If a man says to you, 'I am God,' he is a liar; or 'I am the son of man,' in the end he will regret it; or 'I will go up to heaven' - he that says it will not perform it" (y. Ta'an. 2.1).  

H. Rabbi Aha (4th century) declares: "there was a man, the son of a woman, who would rise up and seek to make himself God, and cause the entire world to err . . . . If he says that he is God, he lies; and in the future he will cause to err - that he departs and returns in the end. He says, but will not do . . . . Alas, who shall live of that people that listens to that man who makes himself God?" (Yal. Simeoni on Num 23:7).  

I. Explaining the resurrection of Jesus, one manuscript states, "He then went and raised Jesus by incantation" (b. Git. 57a).  


III. Conclusion  

A. Before formulating any conclusions, we must note that there are numerous other allusions to Jesus Christ, in both secular and sacred sources. For example, scholars are generally agreed that ancient rabbis referred to Jesus as "so-and-so," in order to show their contempt for him and avoid mentioning him by name. These references were not included in the above survey. Moreover, many times information about Christ can be known simply by observing what is said about Christians in the first two centuries. These references were also avoided in the above survey. Furthermore, a great deal is said about Jesus in quasi-Christian sources, such as the Gnostic writings found in Nag Hammadi Egypt in 1945 (which date back to the late 3rd, or early 4th centuries). Finally, the entire body of literature known as the Agrapha, New Testament Apocrypha, and New Testament Pseudepigrapha has been consciously neglected here. In other words, there is a wealth of information available that provide additional attestation of Jesus' life.  
B. At the beginning of this study we posed the question, "What can be known about Jesus if the entire New Testament did not exist?" Limiting oneself just to the historical documents surveyed in this study, one can learn the following things about Jesus:  


1. Jesus' natural parents were Joseph and Mary.  
2. Jesus had cause to flee to Egypt.  

3. Jesus was known to have originated in Nazareth, and thus was called, Jesus the Nazarene (he was also known by his Aramaic name, Yeshua, and by his Greek name, Christ).  

4. Jesus had a brother, whose name was James.  

5. Jesus had disciples who followed him, much like other rabbis of the time.  

6. Jesus claimed to be God, and called himself by the title, Son of Man.  

7. Pontius Pilate was the governor in charge of Jesus' trial, which took place during the reign of Tiberius Caesar.  

8. Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover.  

9. During the crucifixion, there was an earthquake and a darkening of the sun.  

10. Jesus had followers who could not be induced to curse his name, even upon threat of death.  

11. By the end of the first century, Jesus' followers were singing hymns in worship to him as God.  

12. Jesus' followers would pray for people to be healed in the name of Jesus.  

13. Rumors were circulating that this Jesus came back to life from the dead.  

14. Secular writers scoffed at Jesus' followers, because they thought the followers were superstitious.  


C. One cannot conclude this study, however, without stating what should be obvious by now. If a Christian encounters a skeptic who refuses to believe Jesus was a genuine figure of history, the Christian should ask two questions:  

1. What other religious leader has more hard evidence of his historical existence? and  
2. What other ancient personality from any background has more evidence of his historical existence?  

3. There is no way to avoid the conclusion that there is more evidence for the historical genuiness of Jesus Christ than any figure of the ancient world. If we are going to discount Jesus' existence, we have no alternative but to take a position of total historical skepticism.  

  

Wow is your timeline off...typical. The Ausarian mythos that Yeshua's life (as stated in the Helio Biblio/Sun Book), so closely mirrored was told millenia prior to any Hebrew Bible existed. Deal with Africa.

http://www.africawithin.com/jochannan/drben_bible_chronology.htm

<sub>10,000–6000 STELLAR CALENDAR in use by the ancient Nile Valley Africans, and other Africans of the Great Lakes regions.

4000 SOLAR CALENDAR in use by the ancient Nile Valley Africans.
Book of the Coming Forth By Day and By Night was introduced in its revised state, also know today as the Book of the Dead [as translated from Hieroglyph to English by Sir. Ernest A. Wallis Budge, London, England, 1885 C.E.].

3700 BEGINNING OF THE "WORLD" [Creation Story according to the Hebrews' adoption of Moses' "Pentateuch much later on].

3100 ["4100"] DYNASTIC PERIODS begin under the Nubian named AHA or NARMER [whom Herodotus called "Menes"]; end of the PRE-DYNASTIC "OLD KINGDOMS."

1770 BIRTH OF ABRAHAM—the "first Hebrew" [Jew]—in Asia, at the City of Ur, Chaldea during its colonial period under African rule; to SUN WORSHIPPERS [parents].

1675 FIRST FOREIGN INVASION OF ALKEBU-LAN [Africa]. Egypt overrun by Hyksos invaders from the Banks of the Oxus River around the so-called "Fertile Crescent." These were the first of the so-called "Semitic Peoples" in Africa.

1670 ABRAHAM AND HIS FAMILY ARRIVED IN AFRICA [Qamt, which the Hebrews were to later rename "Mizrain," today's Moslem's "Mizrair," and Christian's "Egypt"]. Famine and disease drove the handful of Hebrew shepherds into Africa.

1320 [?] MOSES [an African of Qamt] BORN IN AFRICA. [The supposed "Father of the Old Testament"].

1230 [?] MOSES CIVIL WAR AGAINST PHARAOH RAMESES IInd. DATE OF THE "EXODUS OF THE HEBREWS" FROM SUCCOTH TO MOUNT SINAI. [Central Qamt, or "Egypt," to Eastern Qamt].

1190 [?] DATE OF MOSES DISAPPEARANCE [Death"].

700–500 PENTATEUCH ["Five Books of Moses, Holy Torah," or Old Testament] completed and placed into circulation. A VERSION of the Book of the Coming Forth By Day and By Night, as distorted by Hebrews living in "Egypt;" supposedly the "...words of God passed on to Moses. ...," who allegedly "...passed them on, word for word, to God-inspired scribes. ...," etc.

250–100 SEPTUAGINT VERSION OF THE PENTATEUCH. The first Greek VERSION of the Hebrews distortion of the Book of the Coming Forth By Day and By Night written by seventy-two [72] writers: rabbis and other "scholars" ["God inspired scribes" according to the teachings of the Jews, Christians and Moslems]. This was written at Alexandria, Egypt [North Africa] by African Hebrews. It was a compliment of forty-five [45] BOOKS, also called "THE ALEXANDRIAN CANON." This VERSION was used by the earliest Greek and Latin Church.

30–4 [?] BIRTH OF JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH. Announcement of a Hebrew boy of Hebrew [Israelite] parents named Joseph and Mary.
Date: C.E. [A.D.]

12 JESUS CHRIST CHALLENGE'S HIS TEACHERS [rabbis] IN THE TEMPLE AT JERUSALEM, JESUS SENT TO AFRICA TO HIDE FROM ROMAN EMPEROR HEROD; STUDY IN THE LODGES; AND FOR HIS INITIATION IN THE MYSTERIES SYSTEM OF EGYPT, NORTH AFRICA.

33 JESUS CHRIST MURDERED BY ROMANS AND JEWS.

52–100 KOINE BIBLE VERSION. First Christian NEW TESTAMENT BIBLE published and circulated. Written in the Greek Language. Parts were written in "Aramaic;" allegedly the "Language Jesus Christ spoke among the common people of Israel. ...," etc., called: PALESTINIAN CANON VERSION. This text was developed by the Synod of Jamnia as a VERSION of the Pentateuch.

322 COUNCIL OF BISHOP AT NICENE. This group of Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church met upon an Edict of Emperor Constantine to take action on the Books of the Bible, along with Mary's "Immaculate Conception" and "Virgin Birth" of Jesus Christ.

323 BISHOPS OF NICENE [on majority vote] APPROVED THE "IMMACULATE CONCEPTION" and "VIRGIN BIRTH OF JESUS CHRIST" to Mary. Jesus Christ declared to be "GOD"—THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY GHOST" [today's "Spirit"].

350–400 NEW TESTAMENT CANON VERSION. The first twenty-seven [27] Books. A revision of the ORIGINAL total of forty-five [45] Books.

400 SAINT JEROME'S LATIN VULGATE VERSION. Based upon the Greek Septuagint Version.

550 EUROPEAN VERSION OF BABYLONIAN TALMUD. Publication of the 6th Century C.E. racist version of the interpretation of the Pentateuch by European rabbis and other "scholars."

570 [B.H. 52] BIRTH OF PROPHET MOHAMET ibn ABDULLAH. Historians argue as to whether he was born at Mecca or Medina. [B.H.=Before the Hejirn].

622 MOHAMET ibn ABDULLAH FLEES MECCA; ESTABLISHMENT OF THE RELIGION OF ISLAM AT THE OASIS OF YATHRIB OUTSIDE OF MEDINA; THE YEAR OF THE HEJIRA [A.H.].

670 [?] HOLY QUR'AN [English "Koran"] compiled and circulated. This Moslem Bible adopted the basic teachings of the Old Testament and New Testament. Serious modifications to the teachings in both were made to the satisfaction fo the Prophet and his followers—the chief one of whom was the writer of the first section, "BILAL" [an African from Ethiopia, East Africa].

600–900 MASORETIC TEXT. This VERSION was written in Hebrew by Jewish scribes of the Masorite School. This VERSION is the basic one most so-called "Orthodox Christians" still refer too as the original source, which is incorrect. It was, in fact, the basic Bible used for many more translations into various languages for many generations of Christians.

1382 JOHN WYCLIFF'S FIRST COMPLETE ENGLISH VERSION OF THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT.

1456 GUTTENBERG VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. The "first book" ever printed by typesetting method. A folio-type edition of the Latin Vulgate Version. It was not "the first book," as so many Christians believe.

1460 [?] MOSES ben MAIMONDIES TALMUD. "Official Translation" of Five Books of Moses according to Moses ben Maimonidees of Spain, et al.

1516 SAINT ERASMUS VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. This was written in the Greek Language.

1529 REVEREND MARTIN LUTHER PROTEST AGAINST THE "EDICT OF THE DIET OF WORMS" against the Reformation. Birth of the major revolution in the Roman Catholic Church and the formation of the foundation of Protestantism.

1535 WILLIAM TYNDALE VERSION. Written in English. The "first English" language version used for further translations, etc. in English.

1535 MILES COVERDALE VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. Written in English as a tribute to King Henry VIIIth of Great Britain.

1537 THE FIRST BIBLE EVER PRINTED IN ENGLAND.

1537 SAINT MATTHEW'S VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. Written in English according to the Coverdale and Tyndale Versions.

1539 COVERDALE GREAT BIBLE VERSION. An amalgamation of the Coverdale and Tyndale bibles, as authorized by the monarch of Great Britain—Henry VIIIth.

1560 GENEVA VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. Written by Coverdale, William Whittingham, John Knox, et at. Produced in Geneva, Switzerland. The "first English Version with Chapters divided into Verses."

1582–1610 DOUAY-RHEIMS VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. Written by scholars of the Roman Catholic Church. An English translation of the Latin Vulgate Version at the Catholic College. The name was due to the New Testament issuance at Rheims in 1582 C.E.; whereas the Old Testament issuance was at Douay, France in ca. 1609 or1610 C.E.

1611 KING JAMES AUTHORIZED VERSION OF THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT. Written by subjects of King James of Great Britain. to satisfy conditions set down by himself and the royalty of his realm, all of which was opposed by the Pope in Rome, particularly those aspects that allowed James to maintain his own polygamous behavior. This is the BIBLE most Black People believe to be "THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE HOLY SCRIPTURE...THE ACTUAL WORDS OF GOD" [meaning Jesus Christ of Nazareth], which was allegedly "...WRITTEN BY GOD INSPIRED SCRIBES." The Black Clergy and Black Theologians perpetuate this myth in order to continue their manipulation of their fellow African  People who so believe.

1885 ENGLISH REVISED VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. A revision of the King James Authorized Version of the Old and New Testament by Europeans and European-Americans from the United States of America. This was the "first time in history" that European-Americans were allowed to participate in the further distortions of the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS from the Africans and Asians of the Nile Valley and Tigris-Euphrates Valleys.

1901 AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. By the American Committee that worked on the English Revised Version of 1995 C.E. Jealously between Europeans and European-Americans caused the production of this VERSION.

1924 THE MOFFATT VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. By James Moffatt. Written in 20th Century "modern" English.

1931 SMITH-GOODSPEED VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. The Old Testament prepared by J.M. Powis-Smith as editor; the New Testament by Edgar J. Goodspeed of the University of Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.

1941 THE CONFRATERNITY VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. A reversion if the Douay-Rheims-Challomer Version. The New Testament section was published by the Episcopal Confraternity of the Christian Doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church; the Old Testament section remained according to the Latin Vulgate Version.

1945–1949 KNOX VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. Written in English by Msgr. Ronald A. Knox according to the Latin Vulgate Version authorized by the Roman Catholic Command of Wales and England to counteract the King James Version.

1952 REVISED STANDARD VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. written by a group of the United States of America's European-American "GOD INSPIRED SCRIBES" under the sponsorship of the National Council of Churches of Christ.

1961 NEW ENGLISH VERSION OF THE HOLY BIBLE. Written by a group of English writers under the sponsorship of the Protestant Churches of Britain, and by others from Oxford and Cambridge University Press.

1973 THE COMMON AMERICAN LANGUAGE VERSION. This was approved by a group of rabbis, priests, ministers, and theologians who found all of its contents satisfactory to the TEACHINGS of Judaism and Christianity in the United States of America.


Most Jewish, Christian, and Moslem parishioners do not know very much about the basic book they use as their only religious and divine guide. The reason for this is based in the fact that very few of them, not unlike yourself, know the answers to the following questions related to the history and development of the ORIGINAL BIBLES and their many VERSIONS.</sub>



Only literalists care about these questions. Mystics see the greater truths in all religions. Weather a religious personality actually existed or not is irrelavant. There is no proof outside of the Bible that Jesus is an actual historical figure. Using a text to proove the stories in a text is called circular logic.

It's kind of like reading Aesop's fables and worrying about whether the tortus and hair existed. You'd miss the whole point of the story.

Run 'way missionary boy! No minds to colonize or enslave here!

Literalist is a wonderful term or description, Oshun Auset. It involves a lack of imagination, rationale and critical thinking. For too long our people have taken the bible literally to no avail. The literal bible promotes mental slavery, false hope, and inaccurately justifies the ills of society as a test by a jealous, egotistical god. I agree run way missionary boy.

So which is it?  You posted 20 different sources for how old the earth was.  Don't tell me, you believe that they are ALL true right?  That's not possible.  That's like saying that you are 30 years old and 50 years old.  Both can't be right.  Either you are 30 years old, or you are 50 years old, or neither is true.  I stongly believe, based upon overwhelming evidence that the bible is God's word and those other books are FALSE.

The god of the bible says many things which I agree with go forth out onto the earth and multiply, do not mix your seeds, Sodom and Gomorra’s burning was also something that had to be done.

Christianity has its negative point but it also gives human beings a basic moral guidance, if Christianity was not there and the Romans gave nothing instead of Christianity. How would the world be under the rule of the Romans without any religions? I think Christianity provides people who do not have a need for a god for the moment with an idea or an image of the most high until that day another race takes other?

Jemba, what on earth or in the cosmos are you talking about? Your ideas don't coordinate for lack of a better word.

You are right on that one preach.  

You are offbase on this one however.

Xfrodobaggins needs to reassure himself as he realy doesn’t believe in the bible himself?

I have no problem with believing God's word.  It is man's word that I don't trust.  

When Mahatma Gandhi was a live did he ever go out into the public to preach?

When Jesus was alive did he ever go out into the public to preach or did people follow him to be taught?

If you know what you are talking about is the truth then you will only say it once and who ever listens, listens if they don’t, then its up to them right.

Jesus never forced anybody to listen he never went out to preach without an audience once they listened to what he had to say they knew that was the answer or if they did not he didnt care.  

   

First of all, I am not forcing what I have to say on anyone.  If that is true than I can say that you are forcing what you have to say on me.  

Regarding that other stuff:

Where does it say that in the bible that Jesus only told them once.  If they came back to listen to Him speak, they heard it probably several times a day.  Just as you keep comming back to this thread about the gospel and seem to wonder why you are hearing the gospel.

There is a little mystery about heaven.Astronomical research indicate (without proff) it is not in this world. May be Krisna loka. Most likely it is a stae of mind and some people can achieve it by simply turning on or off some mental functions.  Otheres may have to train themselves for decades to achive the same thing. Previous generations may have taught that hell was under the earth ( full of fire) and heaven above but this generation has no reason to hold to such beliefs.  Let us think first about the posibility of heaven.

With regard to fanaticism, what you say is mostly correct. The issue is not the bible, the moslems are more fanatic.. black and white... , the real issues are indoctrination and ideology. It is more than a connumdrom. Every nation, every people who have any sense would indoctrinate their new members..kids...or other volenteers into their system.  If they did not their system would disappear and probably them along with it. The big question then is why some people ..communities..do not see the need to have their young fully brought up into their system.

It is not relegion but ideolofy. What we call relegion are ancient ideologies that have lost their grip because of changing times; knowledge, means of productiong and technologies.
Communist were not less fanatic than moslems or christians. No were capitalist when confronting communists, they were all prepared to destroy the planet.

The ancient ideologies remain relavant because they have dimentions that are mysterious to the common man. There will have to be a change it their relevance is to endure.

The truth is the word of God, which is the bible.

Which god?

The Ancient explanations of our reality gave rise to various world views or cosmologies.  If  you personify these, which all humans seems inclined to do, then they end up with gods. Reasoning backwards, they arrive at the notion of one god that created the others and everything else.

Naturally, all these explanations are not equal nor equally useful.
Nor should we assume that their originators were idiots or had some great malignant purpose, passing down to us conceptions totally unfounded in nature. This is most unlikely, since whatever they thought up was also used by them.

All this is to say, as writ in the psalms, "the heaven declare his handy work......". We all see this but interpret differently. Some interpretations are slightly wrong and some are very wrong. We been  a "little higher than the beast of the field", how do we know which is the perfect interpretation?

We were not there, 32Ad or 742 Ad. We take what is given to us and most of us (globally) really do just that.

Hence in Moslem countries most of the people are Moslems, in Christian countries likewise. It is not because these others are idiots why they believe it is because they are indoctrinated in childhood and so were we.

So, "The truth is the word of God, which is the bible." is just one solution to an equation that has many solutions that are being practically applied all over the world.

Rastafari is all about getting to heaven while you are alive. People like "frodo" will never overstand that.
Misery loves company, that's why fundies like him want to convert people so much.

The God of the bible is the only true God.  The Lord, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, these three are one.

I am not miserable YOU are.  I have peace of knowing where I am going when I die, do you?

According to the scriptures 100% percent of the world is going to hell, we commit more sins in our lives then we do good acts before dieing. You would have to be a Buddhist monk to get into the Christian heaven, even Christians them selves worship god only on Sundays, their to busy to dedicate their lives to him.

Why?

I'll answer my own question. Because the Hebrew version of God is the one with dominant political power in this day and age. This political power came from European empirical expansionism starting with the consolidation of the Roman empire under the state religion of the Hellenistic version of X-tianity instituted by Constantine, and continuing through the age of capitalism, direct colonialsim, and slavery, and now economic imperialism and neo-colonialism. The same system Rastafarians(and all other like minded African centered folk, as well as others non Euro-centered people) are against, and must DESTROY because of the inherent massive oppression and exploitation that was and IS it's target GOAL in formation!

Why come to a site like this with such dribble?

Run way missionary man!

Of course you will state something to the effect of... It's because it says so in the Helio Biblio and because you believe it to be that way.   [smiley=sleeping.gif]

I am not a Catholic and am very different from them.  I believe what the bible says.  They teach their own church false docrines which contradict the bible.  My church has never been associated with them.

There are some people who will never have the ability to develop free thinking
If you don’t ask questions you don’t get answers.

The people who don’t get answers get orders and Christians don’t have the abilities to give me the answers I am looking for.

Where is god?

Where is heaven?

What happens after death?

The bible has not answered these questions even for Christians themselves, the bible only makes them believe that there is a god not see or hear or feel or touch.
If humans beings can’t experience god with their fives senses they will not be able to explain what or who is god.

So they put them selves in an elusion and pretend to believe in god or a god because they have no explanations within their range.  

A persons emotional state should not bear on their argument. The question is do they make reasonable propositions and do they respond  to propositions as if they understood.
In this case, no. Maybe his computer is programmed to spit out, “The God of the bible is the only true God….etc.”
By all means defend your beliefs but if you really think  they must be true, them you are believing that you are infallible. Hence you are the veritable god himself.

Just stop and cast your mind around. All over the world people are defending religious systems into which they were inducted as children. Even if the bible is the word of god this is still true. We did not go up mount Sinai and discover it, and we cannot prove nor disprove that claim.

But the notion of heaven on earth is very alluring. Do no hide it from us. Let us know where or how to  find this great beneficence.
[smiley=furious3.gif]

According to Christian belief sinning does not follow rules of arithmetic, hence one act  of forgiveness can wipe our a life time of sin. This is problematic but the blood of Jesus can over come it. There are things that are beyond our understanding. Perhaps it does work we just do not understand it yet.  

Take a stone person who knows nothing of electricity into your home and say to him/her press that button and you will get light.
May be this person is genius in his stone age village and has a good working knowledge of the world and “knows”  that nothing works like that. He would be justified to say that the proposition is  nonsense. But he would not get the light if he does press the button.

Besides some realities are psychological and we know that for human beings such realities can  become more important that the physical. This is a component of their nature. It would be illogical, unwise and will prove fetal to build a social theory…system…. that denies human psychological realities.

What you say here is widely accepted but there is some implications that are unsettling.
You seem to say that Constantine and his contemporaries put together a  system and with their great foresight and wisdom could see that it would evolved into a global hegemony about this time. Hence you impute to them god like skills and great malice. The history does not suggest that at all.

The people who dominate global affairs are west Europeans. All the other Europeans and white people are hangers on. They are in the same category like the Asians and the Africans. That is why they were the second world.


The Romans were in Western Europe as you said but the relationship is some thing like that of Jamaica and England in our day.  The Jamaicans  have parliamentary democracy because they are familiar with it and it is one of the most successful systems going. There are many individuals in Jamaica that are British or part British and that is kind of relationship that the west Europeans have with Ancient Rome.

During the middle ages the Europeans struggled to maintain independence of their home lands.  Spain and Portugal were taken over, southern France and Germany were battle grounds, most of Eastern Europe was conquered. The struggle was long and hard, over seven hundred years. The Europeans were fighting on their home turf, they had the advantages, finally they won.  This has nothing to do with Constantine and a great plot.
Had the Europeans not come to power on a global scale some other group of nations would have done the same thing. Such a group of nations would have to deploy power and force just as the Europeans have done.

Hotep Guybaux


John 16:5 to 8


I am the vine, you are the branches. He who aides in me, and I in him, bears much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me, he is cast out as a branch and withered: and they gather them and throw them into the fire and my words in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this my father is glorified, that you bear much fruits: so you will be my disciple.



Lets remember he was speaking to very spiritually dead people and speaking in the language of there time. If a Christian was to read this the only thing they would see is hell, but he is telling the people in his time that his words is what they need to overstand what or who the most high is.


The bible has negative and positive words it’s not for Nubians, the bible has does not have enough knowledge to help a spirit stand tall. It’s a beginners book read it to children but when they get little older then what.  


 

Bad analogy. How can you compare the seemingly instantaneous light form an electrical switch,(to the uninitiated stoneage man...an initiate in who electricty is conducted would know that there is a process) with that of someone claiming instant spirtual enlightenment?

The masses of X-tians are like the stoneage man who thinks that flipping the switch is all it takes to reach enlightenment...get the light. They are led to believe that all it takes is to believe in Jesus and you are 'saved'... They believe in shortcuts. They are the uninitiated, largely lacking any spiritual enlightenment.it is deemphasized by the church on purpose) the, or a process to achieve enlightenment that so many other religious/spiritual tradtitions actually emphasize.

Yet they preach and prostelize.

Where did I say such a thing? If anything Constantine just started the ball rolling. I am actually saying that X-tianity is largely globally popular because of the accident of historical circumstance and European greed and force. It's a cultural trait that evolved from the development of European expansionism.  Constantine had no idea how far it would go. Are you equating greed and mass murder and oppression with "God like" qualities?



The economically dominant Western European elite DO NOT EVEN COME CLOSE to equating Africans(and other non-Europeans) with their less powerful Eastern and Mediterranean European neighbors...period. I thought that was obvious. Yes, they may not 'cherish' their neighbors well being as much as Western Europe...but I recall the Balkan intervention ect. Rwanda, Haiti, or the DRC anyone?  White supremacy is still the order of the day. And that means Black is still at the bottom of the caste system. If you don't get that then....




Are you serious? I was stating that the cultural tendancy for Westrn Europeans to be expansionist evolved from the same cultural tendancy of the Roman empire to be expansionist. One was regional...the other worldwide...but 'out of check' greed was still at the core. IMO you are comparing apples and oranges.



Believe me...no Euro history lesson needed. You were missunderstanding what I was getting at.



People always say this... The European expansionist cultural tendancy is not just happenstance that took place in a vacuum. BTW...Africans circumvented the world millenioa ago...but didn't set up an oppressive empire...Explain that?

So are you one of those folk that think the only reason Europeans were global colonizers was because they had superior military technology?  I don't think so. Keep reading the site. Culture determines a lot.

These questions are answered in the bible

Hotep Jemba.

I always wonder why it is not amenhotep?

So sorry folks, that I could not respond to postings, system failure.


Concerning the quote:

I really struggle to keep an open mind on these issues, hoping that somewhere along the line I would be able to see the benefits each side has to offer.
On these so intangible matters I have to employ the principle of correspondence from hermetics.
"As above, so below" According to this principle, Christians are spiritually the most advanced religious group on the planet. If they actually are then we need to explain the contrary data. If they are not then the principle of correspondence is wrong. What would we put in its place?

Since the analogy is no good I will say in plain language.
This was a response supporting XFRODOBAGGINSX  claims that he gets peace etc from the lord.

The point is that Christianity says do this, that and the other and you will get a certain result. For nearly two thousand years people have been doing as they are told and they claim to get the result. Some of them have it so good that you could chop off their heads and they do not complain.
This is just like any test that researchers would do in their laboratory. It must be done under the prescribed conditions. Hence unbelievers do not the results but not because the theory is wrong.

I reread your posting. The implication is there, especially in the  sentence below. Your denial is important because there are people who are preaching just that and the believers lose confidence in themselves, loose hope and cannot contemplate a future that does not involve the active benevolent participation of white people.






History is replete with empires, some quite petty but all represent the same phenomena: imperialism. I would not know where to draw the line. When an empire is too big, etc. and so I cannot see anything special in size or the fact that some empires cross oceans.


Migration may be the most common human phenomena. If you go to Nigeria all the people there, except maybe the Ibos and the Pigmies, will tell you themselves that the came from somewhere else. They beat up the people that were there before and took their lands. European expansion and posses of various territories around the world was not a special European phenomenon.  I myself believe that if they did not have superior weapons technologies they would still be fighting the people of Americas to this day or they would have been force to compromise with them.


As for culture, I would say it is the determining factor in this whole mystery. But culture can be learned the way one learns arithmetic in school. Any people who fail to learn the culture of survival are going to get what is coming to them.

Forgive me, I haven't been to this thread in a while....The implication is there of "what" exactly?



Denial of what exactly? If anything I am FOR people not only contemplating but HAVING a 'future that does not involve the active and very anti-benevolent oppression and exploitation of a system of white supremacy.







Your opinion, which is fine. I don't agree, and I would use the trans-Atlantic Slave trade and global imperialism as my reasons.




You are referring to the march of the Bantu which was instigated by the expanding Saharah dessert and Arab invasions. Yes their were conflicts between the migrating Bantu and the indigenous people of Western and Central/Southern Africa...conflicst that occur between any grouping of people fighting over natural resources and land.(mind you they did not migrate because of greed, but more out of necessity from the Nile Valley region...Yoruba people for example). Usually the dominant group would absorb the 'defeated' group. I don't think that is comparable to what happenned with European colonialism and the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade.



Then explain why Africans went arond the globe milennia before and did not set up a global "empire".



Believe or know/understand? One can believe anything.



On this we agree. And a culture of survival would be one that has man cooperating with nature for his survival not 'domnating' it9nature0...or his fellow man because of a superiority complex.

Hotep

Oshun auset said

You are referring to the march of the Bantu which was instigated by the expanding Saharah dessert and Arab invasions. Yes their were conflicts between the migrating Bantu and the indigenous people of Western and Central/Southern Africa...conflicst that occur between any grouping of people fighting over natural resources and land.(mind you they did not migrate because of greed, but more out of necessity from the Nile Valley region...Yoruba people for example). Usually the dominant group would absorb the 'defeated' group. I don't think that is comparable to what happenned with European colonialism and the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade.

 Guybaux said

Migration may be the most common human phenomena. If you go to Nigeria all the people there, except maybe the Ibos and the Pigmies, will tell you themselves that the came from somewhere else. They beat up the people that were there before and took their lands.



Jemba says


You are both saying that the Bantus never knew where they where going and or who was there and where they where going to.

They never had a map of afrika, they never knew the languages of the countries which they themselves founded and left.

This is exactly why afrikans need to learn their history from afrikans and not from second hand material by the Europeans.

We Bantus set up an empire from the south of afrika which is now the north to the north of afrika which is now the south.

Who do you think showed the Europeans how to create a nation and how to govern lands, we created federal states everywhere we went and left one ruler but the nation only had one king imagine how much discipline that would take.

The thing the Europeans will never overstand is religion politics and science is one and the same and what us bantus do is mirror the heavens. The same way the most highs deities govern our over world after death of the flesh is the same way we govern our world.

White supremacy is only the order of the day because the competition is not good enough to over turn it. It cannot be for another reason. We all live in a competitive environment, even if you could magically remove the white people it would still be competitive and we would still be at the bottom of the “caste system”. Why are people so upset about the top performer when they are not playing in that league? Black people are now succumbing to the forth and fifth tier competitors while their would be champions are far from the scenes of their misery. If they are at the bottom of the ladder, whose responsibility it is to elevate them?  Does it not make sense for them to concentrate their efforts on out performing those that are next to them in the hierarchy rather than trying to beat the top achiever?

The pro-Africans really feel the pain of their enslaved ancestors. You are establishing arbitrary thresholds. The Africans were migrating, conquering lands and peoples, the Arabs were migrating conquering lands and the Africans: along came the Europeans and conquered both groups. All three groups were involved in the same type of activity only the proportions are different.  God only knows how many millions of Africans were enslaved by the Arabs and Turks. They are not putting up any web sites because they castrated all the males.

You may not notice but the white people are absorbing the black people in the Americas.
In many places the Black people has disappeared. They are been absorbed in United States too. By the complaints that some people make they are really saying the process is not going fast enough.






This issue of Africans circumnavigating the globe keeps coming up.
Let us look at the sequence. Some people came to the Americas from Asia, they establish major population. Then the Africans came, they vanish from the earth. Then the Europeans came, they establish major populations. I do not know why the Africans cannot establish major populations outside of Africa. Why does any body want to build a major theory around something that did not happen? The Africans were in Egypt too, before the Arabs, maybe the same thing happened to them.



Come now! You find hard to accept that the Indians would have held their own if the white people were fighting with the same weapons systems?




Man is only going to cooperate with nature to the degree that he cannot control it. We will not know what is wrong for the relationship with nature until it starts to go wrong.
It has started to go wrong now. People are reacting. Quite likely there will be disasters on  earth because of human activity but the industrial societies will be more able to weather the storms and when the smoke has cleared all the pre-industrial peoples would have been swept from the face of the earth. And it will not matter whether it was caused by greed or altruism, love or hate.


Why is it that people cannot see that the “superiority complex” of Europeans have an historical context. For centuries they were regularly defeating people with fewer men and less resources. They naturally came to the conclusion that they were superior.  Europeans now believe that they have a superior culture and they are very busy telling people all over the world that if follow their lead, things will work out. Are there not enough examples of this? The Chinese definitely had a superiority complex before the Europeans beat it out of them, so did the Japanese. The Japanese has since shown the Europeans-and all the rest of humanity-that their industrial prowess is nothing to do with their history, their blood line or their geography.

Not so good at these kinds of riddles at all.
Are you proudly saying that the Bantus sat up great empires, imperialistic regimes?

well, the queen of heaven would not like that at all.

For me it is neither here nor there. It was a global trend. Conquer or be conquered. Build your own empire or be built into one.
In our age it is spheres of influence. The relationship will continue to evolve.


As for science, politics and relegion been the same thing, yes I agree. But people need to break things down into manageable parts. The potential of that process is over whelming  to those who ignore it.


But what inspire you to pick on the Europeans as been particularly devoid of spiritual potential?

HOTEP Guybaux


Referring to the migration of the “Bantus”

The only afrikans who are not Bantus in Nubian land afrika are the pigmy’s and the mixed race or mutlato race.

The Bantus spread there empires from central afrika and west afrika to the south of afrika where Egypt now is and then back down again to libya and to the Zulus and then back to the centre of afrika where they created the bakongo empire which includes all the countries that are in the centre of afrika Cameroon gabon Angola Uganda and the rest.

Guybaux said

Migration may be the most common human phenomena. If you go to Nigeria all the people there, except maybe the Ibos and the Pigmies, will tell you themselves that the came from somewhere else. They beat up the people that were there before and took their lands.


Jemba

That’s not right before you move to a knew land just like when you come from Europe to America you will need permission to come and settle in the land.

Afrikans where not unorganised savages the Europeans brought disorganization to us we had our own system and we kept in contact with each other and we knew who was in what territory  and how to get there and what resources they had and what languages they spoke.

How did the Egyptians get gold and silver and rafis and cotton into Egypt, by trading peacefully with the same empires which their Bantu ancestors built?

It’s a law in nature that there must be a ruling force or country to where ever the mani or pharaoh was every country in afrika paid tribute to HIM yearly honouring their ancestors tradition.

We may think that we are civilised or capable of things the human race in the past where not capable of but where wrong.

Guybaux said

But what inspire you to pick on the Europeans as been particularly devoid of spiritual potential?


Jemba

They don’t but they where not created to rule this earth either, like you said they have a problem with keeping themselves to themselves.
Maybe one day us Nubians will live this planet and they will have an opportunity to rule but as god dictates we must rule as long as we are here.
They also have a problem with discipline.

When did either of us say that? Please stop putting words in our(or at least my) posts Jemba.  There have been empires that have risen and fallen on the African continent for millenia, there have been cross continental trading routes that existed for millenia. There have been interactions thoughout the African continent for millenia. I'm quite sure the Bantus actually new exactly where they/we were marching to at the time. All I said was the reason for the particular incident of what is now called the march of the Banu. that occured 2000 years ago, was the expanding Saharah dessert and the Arab invasions.

Please stop acting like you are the only one who has studied ancient African history from African centered African historians. This site alone has tons of material on what you have mentioned(which is not what we were discussing and that is why it wasn't adressed in our posts).

What you have stated is the equivalent of this.

Two people are talking about Dessert Storm, and you  criticizing them for not mentioning the Amerikkkan revolution. We were dealing with one particular incident.

Baba doesn't mean father everywhere for no reason.

"Good enough"? We just aren't organized enough. "Good" is a strange word to use, especially in this scenario...



Nobody is trying to make European/Whites "majically dissappear"... My objective is to eliminate the SYSTEM of white supremacy, and therefore eliminate the colour caste system that is one of it's tools of oppression and exploitation.



What? If the system of whote supremacy sets up the rules of the game(for lack of a better analogy) Why would we not want to destroy the elite pigs who set up, and use the system to their ultmate benefit?

Are you talking about releaving the symptoms of cnacer instead of curing it by getting at the root cause?



No it doesn't make sense. If you play by the rules of the oppressor you are letting them still control the game. We are talking about switching the game up all together. I guess this means you are confortable with a system of white supremacy then? You aren't talking about destroying it but rather you are saying to "play along"...very strange. Very anti-human. Very Euro-scientific.

The Sidis(African people of India that recently visited their cousins in Zanzibar) and the African Iraquis would disagree with you. They both still exist and sing their ceremonial songs in Swahili. They both are marginalized by poverty and colurism(sound familiar) so the masses of people don't know about them. I've posted about them on this site.

By the way we don't just feel the pain of our ancestors. We are in pain now under oppression and exploitation.



This is largely a myth(created by the oppressive elite). The African/Black populations are marginalized by poverty and colourism in their respective countries of location. Although miscegination has occured at a higher rate in Central and South America(much more with the also oppressed indigenous people than with the European ruling elite) the African Black populations are quite visible and distinctly seperated by socio-economic status and physical location. Even in places like Puerto Rico where the miscegination rate is as high as it was(over 80% of the population has some African genetic history) there are still 2 seperate African/Black 'slums'...one being Luiza. I just posted on the African/Black people of Argentinia and Bolivia.  



Are you serious? It's mainlychocolate sities here!... BTW I noticed you used the term 'they' when referring the African/Black people in the U.S....Are you European/White? Or are you just not located in the U.S.? If you are in the U.S. please point out where this 'absorbtion' of African/Blakc folks is taking place. I would love to know...Have nver seen it myself.

I think you are confusing ignoring African/Black communities with 'absorbing' them.



You really need to reevaluate your take on history by reading the archives and suggested reading on this site. Your sequencing is way off.

There were hundreds of 40,000 year old African/Australoid skulls found in Brazil, along with rock paintings that depicted the coming of the Asiatics(by these African/Australoids). The African/Astraloid poluations were absorbed by the Asiatics who came in larger numbers and there are some of their genetic offspring living at the Southern tip of South Amerikkka. The Asiatics were 2nd to this land. Then the Mende speaking people came as traders and established the Olmec civilization. they were of smaller numbers than the Asiatics so they also were absorbed. There cultures were also humanist based. So unlike the apartheid regimes set up by Europeans when they have contact with other peoples... Therefore ceating pretty much distinct populations based on a racial hierarchy... They were absorbed. Egypt is Africa genious. The Hyksos invaded, the Persians, the Marmalouks, the Romans, and the Greeks, ect. Blakc Africans were the ones who established and continued to rule through the dynastic period until the Persians(and the bried hyksos period)...I see why we are not agreeing now. Your take on history seems very Eurocentric.



If you study the Indigenous/Native Amerikkkan 'tribal' form of warfare before and under their confederacy...their culture would not permit the genocidal type of warfare that the Europeans performed on them as a people. They never totally dessimated their opponent. Only a few people would be killed because they respected life too much. Usually about 14 people or so. Notive they welcomed and shared the land with the Europeans when they first arrived. Like I said before, culture is a large determining factor in societal behavior.

Now, once they were under full genocidal colonial attack, if they had the same weaponry they would have been more successful in defending themsleves and their land.



I think it will be quite the opposite. In the industrialized nations man is over dependent on technology and when nature has the inevatable result of responding to the horrendous conditions created by it's abuse....It is the people closest to nature that will fair the best.

BTW I think a little Western arrogance has crept into your post at this point. Since African people and other indigenous people have been on this planet for millenia, and their have been rising and falling of empires, kingdoms, civilizations, ect. Wouldn't it be these people that would be practicing the more tried and tested form of life? Western man is often arrogant enough to think he has 'invented' and discovered new things...that his is the highest form of civilization...When actually it is the youngest. Youth and inexperience often breeds arrogance. I think Western man will learn the lessons of our ancestors. If you don't live with nature...it will bite you in the proverbial ass... That lesson will be learned by the youngest group on the earth, sooner than later. The people that still follow the ways of their ancestors will fair much better IMO.



Notions of superiority are developped out of an inferiority complex...much like the schoolyard bully. I don't expect you to understand that one though.

Honestly...keep reading the site.

I see why we don't agree now.

Oshun_auset

I'm quite sure the Bantus actually new exactly where they/we were marching to at the time.

Jemba

You mean to say I know where the Bantus where going and who their pharaoh was at that time and who he left occupying his throne.




Oshun_auset


Please stop acting like you are the only one who has studied ancient African history from African cantered African historians.


Jemba

I am not I just have a different source of information which is not written by Europeans and that makes me feel more secure.

When it comes to information the Europeans will never give us 100% of anything
So it’s better to get it from our own.

Oshun_auset

This site alone has tons of material on what you have mentioned(which is not what we were discussing and that is why it wasn't adressed in our posts).

Jemba

Ill search for it but I am not sure I will find a hundred %.


Gyubaux said

White supremacy is only the order of the day because the competition is not good enough to over turn it. It cannot be for another reason. We all live in a competitive environment, even if you could magically remove the white people it would still be competitive and we would still be at the bottom of the "caste system". Why are people so upset about the top performer when they are not playing in that league? Black people are now succumbing to the forth and fifth tier competitors while their would be champions are far from the scenes of their misery. If they are at the bottom of the ladder, whose responsibility it is to elevate them?  Does it not make sense for them to concentrate their efforts on out performing those that are next to them in the hierarchy rather than trying to beat the top achiever?

Jemba

This is what I have been trying to say in all my posts on black revolution and you

We should learn from the Japanese after the Hiroshima bombing, the japanes where sent down the chain of command, they took their defeat very humbly and built a relationship with the Americans because they knew who was at the top of the chain.

The Japanese sent their people to live in America as spies and they stole a lot of info to set up the technology we see in their country now.


Nubians should use the same silent strategies, instead of going up against the Europeans head on, we don’t want to encourage a race war because where not ready for that.

I really meant, if one could make the Europeans disappear.
The objective may be desirable but it has some problems has presented.
It appears has a mask for the angst of dispossessed black people.
The very term “white supremacy” calls all people who think themselves white to order.
If these are you adversaries, why are you trying to unite them?

Europeans came to this crest by drawing power from the fabric of the universe.
It is available to every one every where. The Africans in Congo can ride in a 500 horse power automobile too. I know you are worried about the planet but get your priorities straight. The main threat to humans on earth is not the environment or other aspects of nature, it is other humans. People who cannot defend themselves are in danger! This does not require any malice to be true. Example, an innocent tourist from any where in the world visits a Pygmy village in Congo and carries a disease for which they have no resistance.

Carl Marks  wrote that the capitalist classes, in a few centuries, had created more wealth than all other previous centuries put together. He thought he saw the sun but he did not see it shine. We have seen it shine but not in its glory.
There is no need to despair. With the carbon chain we can make food; make materials ten times stronger than steel, harder than diamonds, withstand 3000 degrees centigrade.
Put your faith in the power of the African mind to accomplish their own needs.
There is a process going on here and those who are not in it are not going to be around at the end.  Why are you waiting for a natural disaster to give the Africans a chance?
Why not make your priority, African Salvation. This system offers unprecedented resources for African rehabilitation. If one can attain that what more do you want? That which is done cannot be undone.
If you have a plan where African Salvation is the top concern let us know or say where it can be found.



Are you dreaming of a system without elites. Only among hunter gatherers would you find such a thing. You would not live with them, even the Africans in their thatch hut with mud floor think themselves above hunter gatherer status.
Is it just posssible that the malice you find among sedantry peoples come with the territory?



We have a disagreement here and we should look at it.
Black people right now, living people, are expiring under ethnic rivalries. Why you cannot feel this pain.
Consider this: you or any person is going about his business and you meet Harry. He starts to kick the hell out of you. You know that this behavior is not in Harry’s character, it is really John that put him up to it.
Your strategy is to totally ignore Harry, let him kick you to death because it is really John you want, he is the guilty one. Good strategy.

Euro-scientific? It sounds like a synonym for  psudo-scientific.  You caught my drift ok.
I confess to accepting the scientific mind as the over arching influence for creation of this age. I took the bait, hook, line and sinker. If you have an alternative: put it on the table.

I would hate for you to think that I am just attacking ebery thing you say because that is not the, I am quite  pleased to hear of the African Iraquis then you have to say, "they are marginalized......" You are breaking my heart again. The pattern is there, it is clear, it is every where; I can see it, you can se it.
You keep thinking that people are opressing them and I am saying they are not doing what it takes to defend themselves--may be they need that murderous genocidal war faring instinct--and you are saying, "not over our dead bodies". Well!
You are going to have your wish.
Who has given you the blue print? How do you know how man should live. Suppose it is mostly by murderous activities as he has always done. You have no part in the creation, you do not know. But suppose that his murderous tendencies are only for a time and it will be all over in the next millinium: guess who will not be around in the forth millinium: all those people who could not learn that one little trick.





According to JA Rogers in sex and race all territories in south America had significant populations of  Negroes and they were bred out. We know that is not the case in Brazil.
In “The destruction of Black civilization” by Chancellor Williams, he even has a chapter entitled, “Black Egypt turning brown and then white”. At the end of the process they have been absorbed. It is a biological decay, it does not go to zero but approaches it indefinitely. That is why you are finding small populations in Porto Rico, Iraq, India, etc.
The question is, what percentage did these people hold in those populations a century ago and are they ethnically the same people as a century ago. You are breaking my heart. You can bet that if your people are in slums, they are not on the up an up.






According to JA Rogers in sex and race all territories in south America had significant populations of  Negroes and they were bred out. We know that is not the case in Brazil.
In “The destruction of Black civilization” by Chancellor Williams, he even has a chapter entitled, “Black Egypt turning brown and then white”. At the end of the process they have been absorbed. It is a biological decay, it does not go to zero but approaches it indefinitely. That is why you are finding small populations in Porto Rico, Iraq, India, etc.
The question is, what percentage did these people hold in those populations a century ago and are they ethnically the same people as a century ago. You are breaking my heart. You can bet that if your people are in slums, they are not on the up an up.

oops, small error.
Sorry about that repetition.

If there is new information I am interested. If that changes my position on some issues it is not important to me since my position is supposed to reflect reality. I do not  know why you are giving the Africans a prize for disappearing- been absorbed-, why is that a good survival strategy?
Can you not see that if the trend continues they will disappear from the earth. Is that what you are working on?






We may disagreeing over trifles here. Let us stand back and get away from the details and  sentimentality. The genocidal war faring of the Europeans is practiced among themselves also and their numbers keep increasing. Obviously it is not genocidal.
“The first dynamic of life is survival”….. a quote.
Survival dictates its own terms.  You nor any other individual cannot prescribe it.
You cannot arbitrarily determine what is a good survival strategy. We do not have any way of knowing that the advanced peoples will not go mad and destroy every body with bombs and microbes or that the backward peoples will die out from disease, starvation and one sided cross breeding,  but his the trend right now.  I know that the African strategy does not look so good at this time and has not look good for a long time. I would feel much more comfortable if they were the “genocidal warriors”




We may disagreeing over trifles here. Let us stand back and get away from the details and  sentimentality. The genocidal war faring of the Europeans is practiced among themselves also and their numbers keep increasing. Obviously it is not genocidal.
“The first dynamic of life is survival”….. a quote.
Survival dictates its own terms.  You nor any other individual cannot prescribe it.
You cannot arbitrarily determine what is a good survival strategy. We do not have any way of knowing that the advanced peoples will not go mad and destroy every body with bombs and microbes or that the backward peoples will die out from disease, starvation and one sided cross breeding,  but his the trend right now.  I know that the African strategy does not look so good at this time and has not look good for a long time. I would feel much more comfortable if they were the “genocidal warriors”





Look at the natural disasters that occur in your life time, do you really believe that backward peoples are going to fare better? Now tell me about the special disaster that you foresee in which they are going to do better.
Why are you waiting for a natural disaster for the Africans to get a break?




Now suppose that you are right. Does that make any difference to our reality?

This is an interesting point where we appear to disagree but only because you refuse to see the big picture. Communities who think they are superior must be able to sustain their claim or it would go away naturally. They must perform consistently over centuries.
The Japanese were defeated in world war two, within fifty years they are back up again, second only to the most dynamic Euro-nation. Can you not see that they have some thing going for them? Can you not see why they think they are better then the rest?
The point here is that their behavior is normal, human and predictable.

Does it occur to you that just as some people think they are superior, -on this we agree- that there others who think they are inferior with a corrosponding series of causes and effects and it is self consistent in a like manner and their performance may not be so much dependent on external influences.

Hotep Jemba.

Now there are two voices crying in the wilderness, saying: “Not all battles are worthwhile fighting and not all victories are won on the battle field.”

I am keen to get your sources, I think I have forgotten some of the details.  


All men may be created equal, but there is no mechanism  for keeping them that way.
Man is not a robot, in any of the branches; he can go up or down the ladder of achievement at will. Whether some men are white or black they could still make or be made to make extra efforts.

Hotep Brother

The only way Nubians can compete with the rest of the human race is religion or believe or way of life.

The Japanese have their culture and spiritual values intact, they have their sacred book which was written by their ancestors so that their deities, their culture and way of life and language would never be lost.

The chines have their language, they also honour their ancestor and they have a sacred book they honour their deities and they have a way of life.

The Indians not the Muslims or Christians have a sacred book and they have their own language and they honour their deities and ancestors, they have a way of life.

The Nubian nation have no language just dialects, they have no sacred book, they have no ancestors if they do then they dishonour their ancestors because they have forgotten the tongue or language which was created by their ancestors.

They have no deities if they do their not calling their deities in the language which was given to them by their ancestors. The way of life which they have now is not complete.

For an example the spiritual system you will find in a haities is not complete. What the haitiens are missing the Yoruba maybe will have but the Yoruba will not have what the haitiens have, why because the Europeans are very smart religion and slavery was not just for profit.  

If Nubians don’t come together and resolve their differences to put together what we all have then there will never be an afrikan nation again.

So what we all need is one path or one way of life.

Hotep Brothers and sisters


CULTURE

Is a way of life of a natural nation, It is the expression of the soul of this natural nation in its cultural space of which the language is the vehicle of their way of life.

Tribe
Land
Language
Names
Governing System
Prayer System and Rituals
Mysteries and Deities
Science and Medicine
Art
Trade
Food and Drink
Dress
Music and Dance
Marriage
Burial
Laws
Ancestors

As long as Nubians do not have one culture they will be no nation.

What ever culture we have now are bits and piece of the past does anyone actually know what languages the Egyptians spoke, no because it’s in the past and what we have now in our afrikan cultures are bits and pieces of that culture we all came from one source.

Hotep Jemba.

Thanks for those suggestions.

Maybe we could strive together and grope our way through the darkness towards African salvation.

I could take what you said as a basic starting point.

There are some essential elements we must observe before we begin.

1) Our processes must be reasoned and logical.

2) We must proceed without animosity.

3) We must accord to all humanity the same kinds of considerations that we want for our selves in our adversity.

4) Accept that we live in a competitive environment on earth and people are competing in groups. They are organized to compete and we cannot join them, so we must organize on a commensurate level if we are going to cope with the situation.

What do you think?

Hotep or yenge>>peace

Brother


Guybaux said

1 Our processes must be reasoned and logical.

Jemba says

I would Like to know what you mean by reasonable? The reason I ask is because if reasonable means we all must have the same ideology before we begin to progress together or we will just remain static.

We have so many black movements but they can never come to work together because they do not have the same ideologies or believes or way of doing things.

It makes me feel sick to my stomach that the same people also cry about the state of black people but they can’t make sacrifices to push forward.


Guybaux said

2      We must proceed without animosity.


Jemba says

I completely agree with you on this hate is a stupid feeling to have within you especially if your weaker then the person you have hate for. But the self destruction in Nubians has to be dealt with in another way that’s why with the few people we have who are conscious we must bond together in one house to set an example spiritually, mentally, politically to show Nubians all over the world that it can be done.

Guybaux said

3      We must accord to all humanity the same kinds of considerations that we want for our selves in our adversity.


Jemba says

Before we accord with humanity we must first sort out our own differences starting with the people who are conscious, to create one voice or one body.


Guybaux said

4) Accept that we live in a competitive environment on earth and people are competing in groups. They are organized to compete and we cannot join them, so we must organize on a commensurate level if we are going to cope with the situation.


Jemba says

The reason where in this predicament right now is because we where so confident of our self and we forgot about the people who run us out of Egypt. Competition is the way of human beings right now who ever leads our evolution dictates and organizes the world.

Jemba

Hotep

what language is "yenge"?

I am not so presumtious. I mean conducted throught a process of raeson. From point to point via logical deduction. we must accept the diversity of opinions, point of views and ideologies at the outset. Identify the most basic requirements where it is clear that those who disagree are on the fringe.


I can accept that  some people feel so strongly that they cannot contian it and must express themselves in impractical notions and schemes.    


The middle ground must be something that can be lived by ordinary people who works a job and raise their children over a period of twenty or thirty years.  This clearly is not revolution and it does not excite some people.



If you look at the history of the twentieth century your will see that revolution often turns out to be evolution but the avoidable misery, loss of life and anguish that is generated in the revolutionary uncertainty is so distressing.


By "accord to humanity", I mean this theoretically. In principle we regard people as wour selves.. viz one law for all.


The fours point I mentioned we will have to expand them but what do you say. Are they sufficent or too much to start with?

Jesus Christ is the Lord.  Accept Him into your heart today!

Earth to Heaven
How far's the trip?

Christians claim that heaven is further than the furthest star, and that is where Jesus went with his father to prepare a place for you, right. Remember, John 14:2 “In my father's house are many mansions...I go to prepare a place for you.” However, if you look at the possibility of Jesus coming back from a scientific point of view, the furthest star away from Earth is billions of light years away. Therefore, in actuality, Jesus still didn't get to heaven. There's no way he could be on his way back.