Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

Hotep

It has been my overstanding that "ancestor" only applies to blood relatives?  What about my grandfather?  He is my grandmother's second husband and the only grandfather I've ever known.  We are very close.  We bonded when I was a small child and now he has moved on to his Next Life. He never had any biological children (my grandmother already had 16, so that was enough) and there is no one to call his name.  He was a very good man and a hard worker who loved me very, very much.  Is it proper for me to pour libations for him?
Also, what about adopted children?  Can they call the names of the family's ancestors to which they were adopted?  Thank you.

Is your question in reference to a specific religious or cultural belief system? The answer may vary depending on the context of the question.

Thanks for your response.
I suppose my question is whether or not there is some exception for people who have joined other families (as is the case with my grandfather) and if there is any way of "initiating" this person into my family post mortem so that I can pour libations for him.

I think the answer will depend on the tradition that you follow. I personally believe that you can pour libation to anyone who is deceased. This is not to say that the ancestor will be "initiated" into your family per se, but we are taught that when one reincarnates he/she usually will come back in the blood line of their immediate family or within the spiritual/familial circle where a special connection was cultivated. Pouring libation serves different purposes (see the Pouring Libation thread on this site), but any ancestor can benefit from the process if the purpose to to send him/her light or even if you want to cultivate some type of communion with the ancestor.

Hope this helps...
Peace

Thank you Benu Ausar! There's a lot of information on this site.  It's horribly snowy this weekend so this will give me time to read up. 

The only non-relatives that you should pour libation to or pray at your Ile'Run (Ancestor Shrine) is to those that cared for you as family. Adopted parents, close family relatives.

You should not pour libation or communicate with suicide victims, people that died as young adults (anybody before 45 years of age approx.)

You should never pour libation or communicate with ancestors that you did not know. They have their OWN families to care for, support and work on behalf of. YOUR Ancestors, even the ones you never met are taking care of you. (Even those that are adopted!)

There is NO traditional African practice where we talk to "just any ole Ancestor" we want. This is a western misnomer.

An Ancestor is defined loosely as:

• Someone you are related to or that took care you JUST like blood family would
• A person that died as an elder
• Died of causes consistent w/ age.
• Was well respected, liked and honored in Life
• Understood and lived by mortality, not "personal perogative"

We do not honor alcoholics, drug addicts, sex addicts, criminals, liars, wife beaters, molestors, lazy people, children, young adults, teens, cowards etc. as our Ancestors.

There are different grades of "dead" - only the best of the deceased get to be Ancestors!

Thanks for adding the clarity. One thing that i have noticed is that many of us Africans (African-Americans) here in America pour libation to and call upon noted ancestors who have contributed to the liberation struggle of our people (or some other respectable accomplishment). Admittedly, the purpose is not to "talk" to these ancestors, but to pay homage.

Holy Crap OlOrisa. You said that only the best of the deceased get to be ancestors. Holy Elitists Crap. Your qualifications for ancestors remind me of the ten commandments. How do you expect anyone to live up or die to such a standard? The most influential and caring people I have ever known were not perfect. In fact they had numerous vices. 
RasAtum never let anyone tell you that someone who showed love is unworthy of reverence. Honor your grandfather

Anscstors that were not what we would call "good" can also be elevated so it is not like there is no help for them. Elevate them
fayomi

Please dont comment on things of which you are wholely unqualified and unexperienced in. I am speaking on the values set in place by our Afrikan Spiritualists since the beginning of time. My comments do not indicate perfection, they indicate righteousness and good will toward your fellow man. They also indicate whether a person is spiritually mature upon death.

Have you ever acted as a medium for the Ancestors?
Do you know what happens when an Ancestor that commits suicide or that was depressed is contacted from the Spiritual Plane?
Do you communicate with Ancestors (for yourself or others) on a regular basis?

I can answer yes to all these questions. My comments stand. Not only because I have experience to back them, but because this is indigenous spiritual protocol.

This is correct. We ELEVATE Ancestors of questionable character. We do not INVOKE or HONOR them, as this is perpetuating the energy of their life and their lifestyle UNTIL they have been properly elevated.

Elevation and Invocation are two seperate tasks.

This doesn't mean we can't question it and change it tho. That's one of our bigget problems as black people, we are afraid to question things and redefine them as we see fit and as it relates to our experiences NOW.

I'm not saying we should change it, but just because that's how it has was in times before doesn't mean that's how it has to be for us now. We have our own minds and consciousness to develop our own thoughts and ideas and our own right and wrongs; set our own laws and methods of doing things.

I'm neither for nor against any of the arguements here, because sadly i really don't know much or even anything about communicating with ancestors (in the traditional african sense anyway), this is really a learning experience for me, but it really don't like hearing things like "...that's how our ancestors did it so it can't be changed"

But preach, i don't think he was saying we can't honor them or hold them in reverence, he was just saying we shouldn't try to contact them on a spiritual level.

Rastafari

@ OlOrisa_Olokun Could you possibly expand on elevation, etc, and the how to's if that is allowable on this forum, as I have in the past been given instruction as how to elevate my mother, this was a while back. I also feel that I should elevate my father (reasons unlisted) and also any teaching that you may share is much apreciated
Aboru Aboye Abusise
Ifayomi

Olorisa. What are the qualifications in order to comment on your elitists crap? And who should I apprentice under to become experienced? If I answered yes to all of the questions you posted does that render me an authority on the subject?

if u answer yes to my questions and maintain your answers that would make you a liar. if you answer no, that would just make you uninformed.

if you want to answer and give responsible advice, stop "preachin" and become a devotee of a lineage recognized Traditional Afrikan Spiritual system. There are lots to choose from.

But this is not a white man's religion. Opinion, quite frankly, doesnt matter.

What is interesting Olorisa is your assumption on my religion and/or belief system. Can you name my religion? I'll grant you three attempts.

Let's be clear, if I want to know your religion, if it was my business and knowing would be beneficial to me or mine, I could find out by simply asking the Ancestors via divination. Plain and simple. BUT..I don't want to know, its not my business and knowing it wouldn't be particularily beneficial to me and certainly not mine...

In any case, my point is not to indicate your religious leaning - but to illustrate your colonization, conscious or otherwise by Eurocentricism. The fact that you believe your *opinion* is what defines Egun reverence is a European reaction. Its not your fault. All of us, including myself, held that belief when first encountering the Egun.

Egun reverence is a SCIENCE. It is not rooted in opinion. My suggestion is that you re-read my post and look for the true message. We all have a MULTITUDE of Ancestors to work with....but we don't choose who is an Ancestor. The Collective Ancestors do that. Just as a boy does not choose who is an elder, only other elders may hand down this dinstinction.

You are trying to debate or have a war of words or clash for the sake of clashing in an attempt to assert your "right" to believe what you want and to advocate for others here that "think" that one opinion is as good as another. I am not arguing with you. I am not belittling anyone's relationship with the deceased in their family.

I am saying heal those decease that need healing. Seek the guidance and offer reverence towards those that earned the right to be viewed as Ancestors.

Afrikan Spirituality is taught and passed down in lineages as SPIRITUAL SCIENCE. Science, even spiritual science is never EVER based on opinion. It is rooted in observation, study, proof. Everything that I have shared thus far is in sync with traditional Afrikan SCIENCE.

Among the Yoruba, Egungun Priests work exclusively with Ancestor Spirits and they teach the community different names for different levels of death and deceased. The category governing EGUN or Ancestors is clear - it is rooted in emotional, social, intellectual, political and spiritual balance. Suicides, criminals, rapists, liars, the gullable, the fools, the lazy - while not the same in terms of the severity of their actions or their intent all fall OUTSIDE of Ancestorship.

But if you don't believe, set up a space for all the suicides in your family and start pouring libation to them. I PROMISE you that you will be in need of mental help very soon after. You will invoke the energy of their pain, their suffering and their lack of closure. And then you will be sure - opinion means nothing in SCIENCE.

Let's Heal the Community by spreading the Truth..and nothing else.

If we all agreed there would be nothing to reason or critic. Opinion is not contrary to science. Science involves systems or developments through trial and error or experimentation. Perhaps you should study the math.



bless you.

Preach, How can one reason or critique something you don't know much about? That seems illogical. Calling Ifa 'elitist' because you don't/didn't understand it,  isn't exactly an honest approach is it?

What is Egungun
by Babalorisa Adeyemi Efundeji Oyeilumi


We honor and give praise to God, whom is known by man names. We pay tribute to the divine force with us and our presence, for we know that without spirit of trust, belief, tradition, love and patience, our circumstances in this country and the world could be many times worst. Ase!

Ancestor Spirits
The Supreme Being is no stranger to the Yoruba or African. God is incomparable and is established as “The Creator”, having no equal, and is not represented by an image. God is also the absolute controller of the universe, using divinities (Orisa) as lesser agents, delegating authority and functions. God also allows the ancestors to act as intermediaries between man, woman and God, and between man, women and the divinities.

The Egungun (ancestors) are the guardians of family morality and they can come down to help or molest, to create adversity or grant happiness.

Origin of Egungun
Egungun is regarded as the collective spirits of ancestors who occupy space in Heaven. Hence, they are called Ara Orun (Dwellers of Heaven). These ancestral spirits are believed to be in constant watch of their survivors on Earth. They bless, protect, warn, and punish their Earth relatives, depending on how their relatives neglect or remember them. Their collective functions cut across lineage and family loyalty. They protect the community against evil spirits, epidemics, feminine, witch-craft, and evil doers, ensuring their well-being. The spirits could be evoked collectively or individually, in time of need. The “place of call” is either on the graves of ancestors (Oju Orori), the family shrine (Ile Run), or the community grove (Igbalele).

(http://www.rootsandrooted.org/images/egungun_costume_III-sm.jpg)

The ancestral spirits may be invited to the Earth physically in masquerade, and such masquerades are referred to as Egungun or Ara Orun. The supernatural powers the ancestor have over the community become real as the different Egungun perform their religious, political and social function. Egungun appearances resemble the Yoruba view of life after death. The coming out of Egungun is a time of festivity and entertainment. A time of deep belief in divine guidance and protection also a way of immortalizing one’s name.

One of the principle Odu which shows how Egungun was is Oturupon-Meji. Another is Owonrin or Aseyin. A lot has changed with the religion since the first Yoruba slave landed on the western shores from how it was practiced in Nigeria along the side of the Atlantic.

The Egungun
It is believed that everyone has the power and ability to communicate with those who have passed beyond this life. This communication can simply involve remembering a revered ancestor and making use of that memory as a role model for life decisions and through the use of dreams. Because the festivals (places where there are Egungun) are not easily accessible in this country, Orisa worshippers in the west have created several alternatives. Using this alternative approach the first step in the process of honoring the ancestors is the set up of an ancestor shrine for prayer and meditation. There are a number of traditional African ways for building an ancestor altar. If you do not have access to either a Babalosa or a Babalawo, we recommend that the altar be set up with minimal elements. Clean the room or space by smudging (smoke from burning leaves) Ewe, herbs, saying a prayer to the water, light a candle, also placing food, water, fruit, incense, names of ancestor/relative you wish to honor. A offering of food, in small portions on a small, preferably chipped, white plate, should be placed at the altar prior to your family sitting down for a meal. You can also place a cup of coffee or tea, some flowers and cigars. Once you are in communication with your ancestors, they will make specific requests for the kind of offering they want. Once the offering has been made you should thank the ancestors for the blessing that you want. Once the offering has been made you should thank the ancestors for the blessings that you have already received. You may express your thanks in your own words.

Even the trauma of the slave trade and the horrors of the middle passage did not erase the long history and rich lore associated with ancestral devotion, from the African’s mind. In Cuba, most if not all, of the public performances of Egungun masquerade had passed out of use by the early 1900’s. This was not the case for the Yoruba taken to Brazil. They were able to continue and maintain most of the customs of their homeland. This was due, in part, to Brazil’s proximity to West Africa., also to easy movement back and forth of free Yoruba. Today Brazil can boast of the largest Yoruba population. One sees Egungun masqueraders maintaining their Yoruba heritage in much the same way their African counterparts do. This Egungun masquerading is not to be confused with the brand of Brazilian spiritism, developed and propagated by Alan Kardec, the European Spiritist.

Egungun in Oyotunji Lineage
As with all cultures of the world, all wisdom, knowledge and understanding of any given nation or ethnic group has been historically preserved in secret societies. For the Yoruba of Southeast Nigeria, one of the many secret societies is the Egungun Society or Egbe Egungun. It is through this society that the Yoruba preserve and nurture the history of wholesome community and family development and growth and elevate the memory of their ancestors. Through enshrinement celebration and ritual, one such society, Egbe Egungun Jalumi is a secret society of African-Americans dedicated to reclamation and preservation.

This lineage, as a society, was started 25 years ago (c1973), in Oyotunji Village. By 1975, the late Chief Otu Priest, Orisamola Awolowo, was acting in the capacity of the first Alagba of that society. It now includes six alagba. Two other initiated and practicing priest, of Gary, Indiana and Milwaukee, Wisconsin help perform ceremonies. Oyotunji grew and grew, assisting national groups.

In Yoruba religious doctrine, Iku (death) is an Orisa. A creation of Olodumare entrusted with the duty of escorting man and woman from this world to the next. He is known as Ojise Orun (Heaven’s Bailiff) In this case, death is likened to a debt, everyone must pay, and Iku is the collector.

It is Iku’s ability to transform those we love and cherish, thus hiding them from our mortal view that causes such pain, anguish, bewilderment in society. The descendants in the diaspora have evolved and offer a response to the pain of death. This response is best observed in the workings of the Egbe Egungun. Egungun originated among the Oyo Yoruba, who have adapted and added to the masking traditions honoring the ancestors, found among the Nupe Itapa. The Society is composed of spiritual specialists, who oversee the observance of ancestral devotion and come to the aid and comfort of the community when death strikes.

There is a well known Yoruba expression, “Aye’ Loja Orun-Ile – Earth is but a marketplace, Heaven is Home.” Earth is often seen as a farm, at the end of the day we return home to count our gain and losses. So too is our sojourn on Earth. Ase


Babalorisa Adeyemi Efundeji Oyeilumi is one of the founding members of Damballah Wedo and Oyotunji Village. He is one of the first African-Americans to be initiated to Orisa. He is a priest of Obatala.

http://www.rootsandrooted.org/egungun.htm (http://www.rootsandrooted.org/egungun.htm)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heaven for a Thug?: Why Libation and Young Warriors Don't Mix

Since as long as anybody can remember, young brothers have been pouring out liquor on the street corner for their fallen friends, young men that have died from gang violence, disease, police violence and drug wars.

Thug Heaven?

This act of libation has spawned a popular aspect of Hip Hop, where young people now pay homage to fallen "street soldiers" which inevitably pushed the question, "Is there a Heaven for a G (gangster)?" A question that young warriors have already answered which some common notions as "Only God can judge me" and "Thug's Paradise".

(http://www.rootsandrooted.org/images/get-it2.jpg)

Well the short answer is yes. Africans and Native Americans believe EVERYONE makes to Heaven, with the exception of disturbed souls whose death was so violent and traumatic that they have to be ushered into the afterworld through special means. Many middle passage, civil war soldiers, Vietnam vets, lynching victims etc. fall into this category. There is a "heaven" for thugs, but it isn’t pretty.

Heaven is simply the afterworld and it is "good" or "bad" based on how you live. Indigenous people say rapists go to live with rapists in the afterworld. Killers, egomaniacs, bigots, etc. They go to a place to reside with people like themselves. So they will be surrounded, at least initially with all the misery they experienced in life.

When we tell the family of these dead children that their children are finally at rest, we are most likely deceiving them. Many relive their days on Earth so they can fully understand the evil they caused others. Their souls do not rest. They are tormented and troubled. Especially if they are among those that didn't make it to Heaven, but instead are waiting for spiritual work to be done on their behalf.

We call these people that die but do not become Ancestors "Dark Deceased" in some cultures. They are not honored, nor believed to have lived long enough to understand and achieve their divine destiny.

What do Thugs do in Heaven?

What they do in Heaven is the same as what righteous people do. They recount their time on Earth, hear what lessons they failed to learn, and begin to process that for reincarnation. Some are so terrible that they are not given opportunities to return as long as their evil is felt on Earth. If Hitler was human (and I have reason to doubt that he was) you can be sure that he probably hasn’t reincarnated yet. It wouldn’t be logical to let such a person cross over into Life again when millions of spirits that haven’t caused as much suffering are waiting to reincarnate as well. (Please know these references to numbers are for human understanding and aren’t to be taken too literally. The point is that many ancestors and what we call "Yet to be Born" are waiting to experience Divine Creation.)

(http://www.rootsandrooted.org/images/get-it1.jpg)

Should I pour out a little Liquor?

But it’s important to realize that the pouring of Liquor or Libation is a rite reserved exclusively for those that lived good moral lives. When we pour libation to a person we are honoring and invoking their character, behavior and beliefs. We are asking them to bring us more of what they gave us on Earth.

(http://www.rootsandrooted.org/images/get-it4.jpg)

When we pour liquor to fallen "street soldiers" we are invoking the sale of drugs, the use of firearms, the objectification of women, the fear they breed among our elderly, the vice grip they hold on our blocks. We are asking them to bring more of that into our lives. To help us continue to fight gang wars. To help continue to be able to do whatever it takes to get fly clothes rims and secret "cribs" where we hide secret girlfriends. We are invoking their desire for money, their desire for revenge, their desire for power and respect.

We are welcoming more crime, more death, and more materialism into our lives.

When we pour liquor to a dead gang member we are praying for more gang members. When we pour liquor to a dead pimp we are praying for more pimps to be born and molded. In doing so, the cycle continues. There is a spiritual consequence for performing the rite of libation on the wrong people.

"The Rules"

 We do not pour libation for people that died in violence that was not community endorsed (a just war) - In most cultures they don’t get public funerals either.
 We do not pour libation for criminals. - In most cultures they don’t get public funerals either.
 We do not pour libation for deceased children, even if they were good people. What could a child spirit offer us in the way of wisdom??? (Some culture differ here or at least restrict their communications with child spirits.)
 We do not pour libation for people that died of ailments out of norm for their age or that betray a bad lifestyle. - In most cultures they don’t get public funerals either.
 We do not pour libation for people that commit suicide. No exceptions. (This is always the one that everyone feels they ought to do"anyway" and end up getting hurt even WORSE.)
 We only pour libation for Elders that were moral and responsible.

Healing the Thugs

If you have a loved one that didn’t die as an Ancestor you can pray for their spiritual elevation in your prayers to God, not the Ancestors. Pray that they learn the lessons of their lives well and that they make it safely to the afterworld, if they aren’t there already. Light a candle every once in awhile for them.

If you feel the presence of a relative or friend that died violently, was a criminal, a sexual predator, a poor parent, or had any other bad characteristics that made them unpleasant to most, you should demand that they leave and find divine spirit. It’s not your job to help them do that, because as vagrant spirits they are more dangerous than they were alive and they can become very desperate and violent in their confusion. Only a professional spiritualist should call and work directly with one of these spirits. Again, you can light a candle for them to move towards for spiritual realization. This acts as a spiritual trigger, a "metaphor". That is it. Anything more and you may get hurt. (Literally. I have seen this happen with my own eyes.)


What Impact do Dark Deceased have on our lives?

Many of you are fighting with spouses because of vagrant spirits that couldn’t keep relationships during their lives or battling with a boss that walks with a vagrant spirit that was a slave master etc. Or you want to give up the gang life but feel "compelled" back by an old friend that is now a morally unresolved spirit.

(http://www.rootsandrooted.org/images/get-it5.jpg)

This is why we shouldn’t pour libation to our young warriors that were involved in crime or violence. This is why we should not call their names in praise. This has nothing to do with the love that we have them. It is about honoring and invoking the right kind of energy and wisdom into our lives.

Ever notice how your grandparents didn’t speak about certain people after they pass away?

http://africanamerica.org/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/96970854

One of the articles above is by my godfather, who is incidently is one of the 1st Afr-Ams to be initiated to Orisa'Ifa. the other article is by myself.

Was that a short lesson on what you assume I don't know much about? If so no thank you. Most religions are the same they just practice different rituals.

If I don't understand I will ask, if I see wrong I will speak- old preach saying

The list of people who you/they don't pour libation for is crap. Learn a new custom, the art of forgiving.

Monks, if people speak badly of me or badly of the teaching or of our order of monks, you should not because of their ill will hold any thoughts of enmity toward them or any spite, nor even be at all worried. For if you are angry or displeased with them it will hurt you more than them. Indeed, if you were to feel angry or displeased, would you then be able to know what is well intended and what is badly intended from others?"

"No, we would not be able to know this."

"So, if others speak ill of me or the teaching or the order, you should with goodwill unravel the untruth of what they have said and make it all clear to them, saying, 'For this reason, that is false; for this reason, that is untrue; these things are not within us."

-Digha Nikaya

"If it don't make sense to me, it's nonsense." - Old missionary saying. An early example of what might be expected from one veiling his congenital ignorance with misplaced arrogance.

"We seek a new African identity, one that has nothing to do with African practices." - new naygrow saying.

"Africa without Africans, ahhhh....."

Please elaborate Eja.

Elaborate? Why not?

You pass judgement on things you have no knowledge of. Just like a missionary.

I repeat, you know nothing but feel like you are qualified to pass judgement. That is arrogance at a nauseating level.

You call African customs "elitist crap" and "crap". Then you come on here quoting some monk, are you aware of the status held by monks in traditional buddhist societies (e.g. Tibet)?

But I may be wrong, you may be quoting a hindu monk, and since we know how egalitarian they are, you are still well justified in using his words to beat up on a piece of 'elitist crap' from Africa. Yes, I know of naygrows who find wisdom and light everywhere and from everyone with the exception of those who are related to them. Are you an African? If yes, where are you from?

I am Yoruba, and the things you are calling "crap" are my tradition. There are other words that I could use in responding to you. But I will leave it here.

Alafia OLOrisa Olokun,

Cool!(That sounds really immature but it is my first reaction) I figured as much when I was posting it because the 'voices' sounded similar.


Eja,

You took the thoughts write out of my head(and stated them better than I could ever have).

Preach,

Honestly, how can you lump 'all religions' together. This would be the equivalent of lumping the European and African(as well as other indigenous people's) worldviews together. If anything this website has proven beyond any doubt is that they are vastly different in thought and application/practice. How can you logically ask questions about and simultaneousely insult the very same thing? If you are asking questions it means you don't know or overstand something, so how then can you be simultaneousely qualified to judge it(or even be comfortable doing so)?

The 'forgiving' comment makes it sound like you are spiritually stuck in the Western-Euro-X-tian wordlview. What does 'forgiving' have to do with whom one pours libation for? Pouring libation is not just a 'nice thing to do' as has been explained on this thread.

I think your bruised ego is at play here. Unfortunately you are bad talking, before fully overstanding your own ancestors'(and relatives) spiritual technology in the process. 

The traditional Afrikan stamp does not make a religion, thought, person, place or thing right and/or just. I ask questions to learn then critique my observations.
Is it possible that I study what you two study? Or is that not possible because I may or may not find fault in some of the teachings? All schools of thought started in Alkebulan. Peace be upon Buddha aka Sut Nahsi

It is impossible that you are studying what we study for a few basic reasons:

• We do not practice subterfuge. We are required to announce ourselves as what we are when we speak, at bare minimum once we have been asked. If you were a devotee a traditional afrikan belief system you would have surely stated so by now, unless your purpose was less than ethical.
  
  
• Traditionalists don't critique. We practice science. There is nothing to debate or critique. We know Ancestors because we talk to them. We know the deceased because we interact with them. We dont need intellectual jargon or emotional response or simpleton quackery to explain or make sense of the reality of what happens when misaligned people become misaligned dead - they need elevation, not invocation.

Again, if you want to query suicides and manic depressed dead people at your shrines and ask them to provide you with advice and speak to Olodumare on your behalf, do so with caution. If you'd like to stop debating and start getting to the nitty gritty, ask the Ancestors to resolve the "debate" for you. They will provide you with the answer that we are giving you already. Just do get a divination reading from someone qualified and trained to talk to Ancestors and allow the Ancestors to speak definitively on the subject and the case will be closed.

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh, and the greatness which does not bow before children.

-Kahlil Gibran

I believe that in our quest, some of us get too wrapped up in the ritual aspects of traditional afrikan religions, when in actuality when need to embrace the core values.

-preach

Traditionalists are indeed critiquing/judging someone when they exclude them based on certain shortcomings that are not so extreme as to not be forgiven. Subterfuge? My child I have not deceived you, when you saw only one set of footprints on the internet it is then that I carried you.

Please explain how elevation is an exclusionary practice.

A thousand pardons. I don't think elevation is an exclusionary practice. That comment followed  Olorisa's statement that traditionalists don't critique. It was also a response to The Rules from a previous post by Oshun Auset.

You are still missing the point. Ancestor reverence is not about forgiveness or acceptance. Its about making sure that a Spirit is stable and in direct contact w/ the Creator before you INVOKE it and ask it to start working in your life.

I have worked with suicide spirits before. They are completely caught in one moment - the moment of their death! They literally relive that moment over and over and over again. Some soldiers that die go through the same process. This is why Afrikan, Native American and Asian elders taught warriors how to die without being afraid or upset, so as not to disrupt the "transition" process and to increase the likelihood that they would actually make it to the afterworld, as opposed to being stuck on Earth.

A spirit that is caught "in between" is in no position to counsel or aid the living. Furthermore, some deceased make it to the othe side and spend that time processing what they did wrong in this life and it takes from that moment that they arrive until they reincarnate to actually "get it". We dont INVOKE them and give them power in our lives because we dont want them coming down and telling us that "a little shoplifting is okay from time to time" or "sometimes you gotta sell dope to get by" or "little white lies are okay" etc etc. We want to allow them time to HEAL themselves and understand the expectations of the Creator, the collective Ancestors and society. We would no more go to them for advice than we would go to a felon on the corner because we know the felon will tell us to do the wrong thing.

Ancestors are not just dead people. Ancestors are dead people that are in a position to give advice and that have a direct link to the Creator that isnt complicated by any struggles their are having in their own identity. Babies that die are not Ancestors. We love them, but they are not Ancestors. Babies cant give advice or act as a link between you and God. And their premature death marks that something has gone awry - either with us or them, so we focus on getting them healed, not revering them.

This is not about whether we love our dead. We do love them. But when you begin working with spirits of the dead you have to be careful about what "jobs" you "give them" and you gotta be particular, or you will end up invoking not only that spirit but whatever shortcomings that had back into your life.

When you summon a dead person that committed suicide many people in the room will want to cry, some will want to hurt themselves -- instantly! some will fall into depression immediately. This is a clear  sign that this NOT the kind of spirit you should be invoking. When you invoke a corrupt leader, people in the room instantly go on ego trips and want to argue. Again ...why? because when you invoke the dead you invoke the energy and character of their life as well! We have to be sure to invoke people that were good for us and we work to heal the rest. After they are healed (which can take a day or sometimes years) they are inducted into the fold of the Ancestors by the Ancestors themselves! Then the ANCESTORS tell YOU, no the other way around, that the person is now healed and in the afterworld doing well.

Who made these rules for dealing with the dead? The Ancestors did! These are THEIR rules for us.... Its not elitism. Its spiritual science.

Peace OLOrisa_Olokun. Although I don't totally agree with everything you previously wrote, I do respect and understand your point.
Suicide is a very interesting subject. Perhaps in some cases it can be viewed as a selfish act. In others it takes a certain amount of bravery. Actually the living make the biggest fuss about it. So, are the latter in reality the selfish ones who can't let go, or fathom the idea of someone taking their own life?  I personally understand the point at which mental, emotional and/or physical pain becomes so unbearable that there is seemingly only one option. There is much to learn from someone who self euthanasized. Some of the best counselors are the individuals who have experience.
 How can we help in the healing process, when our concentration lies in this realm?     

Whatever position "we" take, recognize that traditional people always considered it a selfish and dangerou act. Again, remember that a person that commits suicide never actually makes it to the other side. They are usually stuck here on Earth, reliving their suicide and whatever pains led up to it. Imagine a suicide victim killing themselves to 'end it all' just to repeat every minute of every hour for two or three decades, with no end in sight. The act never gets them what they want. In fact, if they commit suicide in modern times they are left to develop the spiritual savvy to find their own way to the otherside and into a healing situation.

Our job is to understand what about society has more and more commiting suicide than ever before and what we can do to heal them while they are alive and when their die. In this way we ensure that depression doesnt follow them into future incarnations.

i am little suspicscious@ preach,i read some of his thread and he lacks character and substance,often wondering if " preach" isa white rasta disguised as black,by the nature of his contents and he adresses people! ::)

anywayz,when you call people like that had a bad past and bad life,you are also invoking the spiritual energy that were with this people,ifa person wasa drug addict and alcoholic, you are calling the heavy spiritual energy that was presence with this person,HOWEVER,ifa relative died of natural cause,you have to light upa candle( white candle) 7 seven small candle for each day,and ask eshu to elevate that person to the category of ancestors.
@ preach,i am sure when bush or cheney dies,u gonna make rituals for dem and elevate them as" ancestors" right.

ps: we dont elevate ancestors that were murdered,killed or enslaved,there isa ritual for that,nor do we call people that were our captors and kept us under bondage,we diasporan have indigenous blood and some others in blood line,as for myself,i elevate my ancestors from afrika and my amerindian ancestry,i know the amerindian ancestors will work with the afrikan ancestors [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.

-John Cage   
How cute. You think I'm white because my ideas are outside of your box. What specific comments hint towards your revelation? Pray tell young lord. 

ONE MUST UNDERSTAND THAT IN LIFE THERE ARE NATURAL DIVINE LAWS OR RULES THAT ONE MAY CHOOSE AT THEIR OWN WILL TO ADHERE TO. IM NOT SPEAKING OF MAN'S LAW EITHER. THIS IS AN ORDER DESIGNED TO MAINTAIN BALANCE AND HARMONY.
IF ONE CHOOSES NOT TO ADHERE, SURELY THERE IS A PENALTY. THIS IS THE CAUSE AND EFFECT OF LIFE. IT SEEMS THAT MAN IS THE ONLY BEING THAT TRIES SO HARD TO CHALLENGE AND GO AGAINST THESE LAWS. HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF DIVINE LAW: A GRAIN OF SAND IS BLOWN INTO YOUR EYE. WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? YOUR EYE BEGINS TO FORM TEARS TO WASH AWAY THE PARTICLE SO THAT NO HARM COMES TO IT. WHAT IF YOUR EYE COULD CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT TO TEAR UP. AS YOU KNOW THAT WOULD POSE A GREAT DANGER TO ITSELF BECAUSE IT DID NOT FOLLOW THE NATURAL DIVINE LAWS OF LIFE. THE PENALTY IS LOSS OF VISION OR MAYBE THE EYE. THIS SAME LESSON CAN BE APPLIED TO MAN. WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, LIKE I SAID BEFORE, IT'S YOUR CHOICE TO BE ONE WITH THESE LAWS.

I MUST STATE THAT MY PREVIOUS POST IS IN RESPONSE TO PREACH QUESTIONING OF THE RULES OF LIBATION. PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S NOT ABOUT AN OLD OR NEW WAY OF THINKING. IT'S NOT ABOUT FORGIVENESS. JUST STOP THINKING AND TRY TO INTUIT THE DIVINE LAWS OF LIFE.

afrikanrebel06...questioning things is a white practice? i as well am very interested in exactly how u came about concluding preach is a white person

what do you make of this statement,then!

I've got just a couple of questions. What if the abominable act that a person was doing while on earth is kept secret? Sometimes, for instance, child molestation is kept hidden. Is there a way to find this out before attempting to communicate with/ honor an ancestor/ ancestress? Also, is there anyway for one who died of suicide to make it back to the land of the living in flesh with his/ her issues still unresolved? What I mean is that could they possibly bring with them into the new life, the old depression or is the absolute prerequisite before a new life that all that stuff has to be resolved. Also, I have a certain way I see things right now. Before I say what I'm about to say let me say first that I'm just a beginnner. I haven't set up an altar or a shrine yet. I've just been gathering information. However, a while back I made up my mind that I have no white ancestors. I have several reasons for this, one being that just how some native peoples don't recognize "white people" who invaded their lands as natives no matter how long they have been there now, I don't recognize the nativity to my genes any "white person" who raped (invaded) their way into an Afuraitkaitnut (African woman) in my lineage. I'm thinking there shouldn't be a problem with this in any original traditional African spiritual system, but just incase I'm asking if there is any conflict here. Also, I had heard about these people who lead a certain lifestyle that we deep unrighteous. I heard that they go to a place where there are only other people just like them. I also heard that in some type of special ceremony we can choose to call them forward into a place where they can either begin their therapy so as to cross-over into the ancestral plain or they carry out their therapy in that inbetween place and then the only way they can make it into the ancestral realm is for us to call them forth. Is any of this true?

Thank you

Htp

If you have access to some form of divination, you can inquire or have a traditional priest inquire. or a less reliable method for some is observe how you feel over time invoking particular people. in any case, you can simply list off attributes of people that you do not want to arrive when you invoke the ancestors and attributes of people that you do want to arrive.


this is an excellent question, and the answer is yes. we all arrive again, with to some degree some of our unresolves issues resurfacing. 


theortically your thinking is sound. but understand that in the physical plane you are master. on the spiritual plane things of Spirit run the show. while the spirit world may honor your perspective it someday ask you to address someone that did in fact "rape" their way into your family line. if for no reason than to do spiritual work to resolve it.


all of it is true, and some of it occurs on a case-by-case basis. its true there is only one "otherworld". it is also true that some people dont get there at all. its is all true that some people that are unrighteous get there, but that doesnt make them an ancestor. it means they have gotten back to the source and have been given an opportunity to process their actions and heal and/or make plans to come back to make their past actions right again. there is no completely clean "concrete" way to explain things. it works by situation as i have observed.

by the way for a "beginner" you have a keen sense of things.

Thank you for your reply. If you don't mind, I have one more question. What happened to our ancestors who lived and died in the Maafa? I read somewhere, I think on this site, that we are not to pour libations to them or something like that. I could be mistaken. If I am not mistaken, then why should we not honor them?

Thank you

htp

Many Ancestors that died during the Maafa have since been elevated, so we can safely pour libation to them. Although in retrospect I think about how I used to invoke them in a really casual way. lol Some of them have not been elevated however. What I believe works to our advantage in this case is that many people before us have already "defined the perimeters". That is, these deceased know we are talking to the elevated ones and that when we say we want those in need of healing to seek "out the light" for example, they too, know who we are talking to, having heard all of this for many years now.

the principle remains the same - elevated spirits that are firmly in the other world can assist us. spirits that are not completely elevated, that might stil roam the seas or foreign lands are in no position to help us, they need to help themselves. when you pour libation, you arent just honoring a spirit, you are welcoming it to give advice and assist in your daily affairs. only healthy elevated spirits need to do that kind of thing on your behalf.

Thank you for your answer again OlOrisa_Olokun.

Htp

"ancestor reverence is older than rastafarianism"

who was ever disputnig this?

why do u insist on speaking on rastafari when clearly u know nothing about it? i was jus saying that not because something has been so since forever doesn't mean we can't question it. bredrin why fight ini when ini is trying to embrace the i? rastafari is a culture started by blck people, and u prefer to fight it rather than help it - since u think it needs help.

u know nothing of rastafari. come to the ises and see white people being chased out. hear jesus and "God" being trampled on and denounced...why do u fight and criticise something u know nothing of?

"No one is today so foolish as to believe that any one nation constitutes a perfect monolith of faith and ideology. Nor could anyone wish that there should be such utter vanity of thought and aspiration." - Emperor Haile Selassie I

I am not ur enemy bredrin..

love and blessings...RASTAFARI LIVES!

greetings of peace and serenity@ natural blacks

i am not fighting you nor gman,naturalblacks,my interest in our homeland,is to go before he came about right,to go back to the shongai empire,the ashanti empire,what was ethiopia before sellassie came to place,
i mean ancient ethiopia,actually,sudan egypt and ethiopia was all one place,you realize that right natural blacks,thats why it is called by great scholar such as doctor yusef ben jochanan,the nile valley civilization,because at one time,it was all one region,before the krakkarabs and the almoravids took place,
takea look on pre colonial black africa by the towering scholar cheik anta diop and african origines of civilization,nah,natural blacks,i am not fighting you,nor gman,i have this book called africana thought,and in it mentions about leonard howell or lionel howell, in jamaica,the founder of rastafarism,when i get my book back from a friend of mine,i will quote the page and the chapter [smiley=2thumbsup.gif] [smiley=beam.gif]
btw is tracey a white woman,i read her thread comparing us to monkey or something,read it and tell me,i might be wrong,but i think,she is an yurugu,rheziku aryan,indo european :-\

also by yosef ben jochanan.... black man of the nile and his family ... good read. i'm still reading it.

my interest in the motherland is the same as urs...to take it beyond the "history" of the bible, beyond christianity and islam... beyond judaism... beyond religion... beyond africa...back to ta-merry...back to alkebulan... back to cultures and not religions... back to black... to rid the motherland of foreign invaders... and within all this... ini a rasta!

i don't care about king solomon... i don't care about knig david... i don't believe i am an israelite... i KNOW i am BLACK and my home is alkebulan. rastafari has given me this meditation of back to black... this meditation of sun, earth and moon... of heat, air and water... of womban.... of family... haile selassie is the one who has directed me on this path to seek for a afrika before "africa"... how can i not revere this man? who has brought me from my slumber... who has removed the shackles of king james and constantine... who has removed the shackles of the modern preacher man... who has opened my eyes and ears to the truth and the essence of my existence... LIFE I-TINUAL. the more i read his words the more i yearn to go home... a home free of white influences in anyway... a home filled with black ppl manifesting their glory and walking tall and proud as we once did.

rastafari was created by afrikans... it is afrikan... but with our experiences and the "history" we have been taught there arises mis-iverstandings. but the more u know, the more u grow. and the energy of the motherland calling ini shall outweigh the tricks and the vices of the white man... shall clear the confusions and ini must yadd home to ini family...

ini live! RASTAFARI is for-iver!

 [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]  well hehe,ima glad we are in the same page,arent we,me being pan afrikanist i think,
pan afrikanism and afrikan spirituality goes hand in hand,since the origins of yurib traditions go back to kemet
ancient egypt,yeah,i have blackman of the nile and his family and african origines of major western religion,i know we will meet in the motherland someday [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]