Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

What scientific proof do we have of God's existence? The UNIVERSE CAME FROM MATTER. MATTER CANNOT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED.

then let's call "matter", god then...

If there is a god then matter can be created and destroyed.

Man make religion, Religion does not make man.

Science can not prove the existence of God.

More over no religion has proved the existence of God. It remains a mistery and a big contraversy.
Religion came about becouse of man's imagination, fear of his own mind of that something greater than us exists and faith in that greater something which came to be known as God. 

The christian religion talks about the creation of only two peolpe, Adam & Eve. Then how is it that we got so many races ? How is it possible that these two people could have populated the Earth with so many Races ?
It also talk about noah's ark when the all world was flooded and only those peolpe and animals in the boat/ark survived. Now if this Ark was on a mountain somewhere  between Middle east and Afrika and only Jews or Noah's people were in that ark, how come we still have many races ? How did the indiginous people of the all continent of America got there ?
I don't know much about other Religions but they dont talk about two people created 1st.

What i think is that religion is all about faith in a superior being plus a man made doctrine or rules to follow in practicing that particular religion. My rich Afrikan culture has/had the God of our ancestors, fertility God, rain God e.t.c. just like the Greeks had their Gods- Zeaus, Appolo e.t.c. The common thing in all these beliefs, be it Ancient Afrikan, Greek or present day Islam, Christianity, Afrikanist e.t.c is faith in a superior being.   

So does God exists ? well i think thats personal, that is, its how much one imagines, believes, fears and applys faith to the known facts, history and mistery of this world.     


Aluta kontinua !!

why can't matter be "god"? the indestructible, unconcievable, all mighty matter...

i feel we get confused with "definitions" and labels sumtimes, instead of thinking in terms of "definition", let's think what the word is supposedly defining. what does "god" mean to u? personally i only use the word "god" for ease fo conversation and iverstanding. but is it really necessary for me to try to prove to the next person that there is no "god"...when i myself belief that there was a start to all creation...wat started it? how did it start? because whenever i try to disprove god's existence, i find i come up with the same thing only defining it in a somewhat unusual manner. maybe god is relative to personal consciousness :-\

RASTAFARI

Wonderful statement natural blacks.


God is man idealized.
LeRoi Jones, Home:Social Essays,1966

"What would be your conclusion if you traveled to a distant uninhabited planet and found a stack of bricks, exactly alike in size and weight, some set up according to a geometric series, while another group was arranged to make the letters of the alphabet? Would you not conclude that some intelligent being got there before you and was responsible for the arrangement?"  -- 'Not Out of Greece', Ra Un Nefer Amen

This quote by Ra Un Nefer Amen is relevant because it provides a convenient entry point into an age old debate that too often relys on flawed thinking that passes for science. Science does indeed prove the existence of God. First of all, the word "science" comes from the latin 'scire' which means "to know". Further, the word "religion" is a compound word made up of 're' (meaning 'back' or 'again') and 'ligion' which comes from the latin 'ligare' (meaning "to tie" or "bind"), but it also associated with the Greek 'legein' (meaning 'legal', 'law', or "that which is 'logical'"). So, "religion", which literally means "to bind back" (to God) is also, based on the etymology of the word, indicating that it is logical, meaning that it is not opposed to science. This is why there is no separation of science and religion in traditional African religions.

As far as the quote above is concerned, it shows that science does indeed prove the existence of God! Let's examine it closely... most scientists accept the idea that the creation of the universe began from a so-called "big bang", i.e., certain gases exploded under specific conditions which initiated the process of the elements forming. Thses eventually came together by random chance to form molecules and eventually life. This life would over time exhibit intelligence and ultimately evolve into the diversity of living organisms we know in the world today. This theory is a weak attempt at expaining the beginnings of the universe at best. No self-respecting scientist should seriously consider it given the fact that it raises more questions than it answers. E.g., 1) Where did the gases come from that were "big-banged"? Given these random chance events, why aren't scientists finding evidence of life on other planets, other galaxies, etc.? The answer is simple, life did not begin from some random event called the "big-bang". Life did not develop intelligence, but rather the Intelligence ordered and devloped life! From the smallest known quantity to the most developed mental and physical specimen or the most complex galaxy and universe, an Intelligence we call God created it. And that God created it according to strict scientific and mathematical principles. We see evidence of that "stack of bricks" mentioned by Ra Un Nefer Amen when we look at the periodic table of elements. Get out your high school and college Chemistry books and it is there before your very eyes. You can see that though each element is different, each follow a specific pattern. So much so, that scientists have been able to predict elements not yet discovered. Not only that, the distribution of elements in the chart follow the same pattern as the distribution of ions within each element. This strict organization of the atoms is evidence that an Intelligence was at the beginning of creation and that it was not just some random chance event. We also see these and other patterns manifested and repeated throughout nature, i.e., the Fibonacci number series continously comes up when examining nature. If the Earth moved only slightly toward or away from the Sun, all life would be destroyed. The same is true for the Moon. So the entire creation is arranged to support our existence. Alter the balance that exists if you dare and the accept your fate.

Wonderful reasoning.
But where is she?

If i am understanding the question correctly, then God is present everywhere. Thus, omni-present. The one Supreme Being that is the source of all, is at the core of every atom. It exercised It's Will and differentiated It's Consciousness into a myriad of forms that comes in and as the world. Thus, the source of unity and interdependence in the world.

In the ancient khametic text, The Book of Knowing the Creations of Ra, it states: "I am he who came into being in the form of the infinite power of manifestation (Khepera). I became the creator of what came into being. After my coming into being, many were the things which came into being, coming forth from my mouth. Not existed heaven, not existed earth, not had been created the things of the earth, and creeping things in that place. I raised them out of Nu, from the state of inactivity. Not found I a place to stand wherein. I radiated words of power with my will. I laid a foundation in the law (Maat)...  I was alone, for not had I spit out Shu [Yang], not had I emitted Tefnut [Yin]. Not existed another who worked with me. I made a foundation by means of my will, and there came into being the multitude of things..."

We see God moving everyday. It's just that in the present technological age of movie special effects and so forth, we expect to see people walking on water or turning water into wine. Look for God the next time an ant or a bee crosses your path. In the intracate design of a flower petal or the birth of a newborn infant. God is everywhere, including within each of us. But we must awaken to the fact that we cannot manifest the greatness of God on earth until we elevate our consciousness to allow God to come into the world thru us. We must climb the Tree of Life and recognize that which is our true Self.

Peace...

Depends on your definition of God.
I know JAH is real.

Hello everybody :)

Science may not be able to supply wholesome answers that prove of God's existence. This in no way represents the successes of the natural sciences, but rather, highlights its inadequacies. In my research I have discovered that the deeper one probes into the quantum mechanical realm of the fundamental particle (building blocks of all matter), the more intelligent one finds their design, thus giving light to an entirely new class of questions. The realizations I have made thus far have forced me to go full circle in my reasoning, and as a result, I cannot help but conclude that there must be some intelligent purpose behind this creation. Hence the reason for this post. My reasonings below may seem a little long-winded, but just bear with me and be patient :)

Here is what the scientific community has to say; Contrary to popular belief, science (more precisely Physics) has NEVER disproved or proved the existence of God. More specifically, the uniform consensus amongst western empirical scientists is that due to scientific advances, the need for a supernatural explanation behind physical events becomes less important, and also, that any so-called 'supernatural' event MUST have an explanation within the realm of physics for that event to have any validity. One also needs to bear in mind that the goal of using Physics to solve the exact nature of the universe CAN NEVER be realized. Instead, it is only possible to construct representative models of observed events up to some finite accuracy by observing these events and their interactions in finite detail. The fine structure in which we are able to resolve an event is solely dependent on our competence at constructing the right tools, which, at its most basic, is dependent on nothing more than our physical biological composition. Now consider the case of fundamental particle physics.

As the models constructed here are only as accurate as ones' ability to observe, there is simply NO physical experiment in the world that can ever come close to reproducing a given fundamental interaction with 100% accuracy. Consider now, that these fundamental particle interactions directly govern how the world behaves on the macroscopic realm. It is implied then, that due to the severe restrictions placed on how accurately one can measure a given event, physics is only capable of explaining the macroscopic world to some very limited degree of accuracy, albeit adequate for everyday purposes where the true picture is not exactly necessary to justify reasoning.

Despite this, as a science Physics has been able to flourish while being the only field in its class with the ability to explain to some degree HOW events work while having absolutely no explanation for WHY these same events behave the way they do! Moreover, it professes that asking why events are the way they are is a non-scientific and hence irrelevant question. To answer the question as to why objects behave the way they do, the scope of the discussion can no longer be restricted to the subject of Physics. Instead, one must borrow foreign concepts from other fields of research that, when isolated to only those fields, would be constituted as fundamental. These external areas include theology and philosophy. In the eyes of an empirical physicist, however, to include these concepts would be considered, 'Not good physics'. This has been the stance taken by western science since its inception because, from this perspective, these decidedly unrelated external sciences introduce variables to Physics that are impossible to measure quantitatively. From the western view point, if it is proven that a variable absolutely cannot be measured, then it is also not possible to find a connection between that variable and an event under scientific study and hence, one concludes, that that any physical connection between that hidden variable and the event under scrutiny, need not be considered. Note here that it was not, nor can ever be argued that there IS NO connection, only that the connection NEED NOT BE CONSIDERED! Despite it's obvious flawed logic, this reasoning alone has been used to justify the non-existence of God and the irrelevance of the spiritual, since there is no observable connection between either and the physical world. Now clearly, the restrictions placed on our ability to measure the possible God-connection is not a consequence of the Supremes' absence, but in our ability as human beings to feel his presence externally, and measure the spiritual influences quantitatively. In no uncertain terms, it is our own lack of spirituality that causes us not to see. But, then, there are those of us that do profess to be enlightened. How can we claim to feel Gods' presence with 100% faith when there isn't a single external experiment in existance that enables us magnify this presence stronger? The answer is that it can only be done from the INSIDE of our being, and once accomplished, as humans made in God's image, we will naturally radiate this energy outwardly. Therein lies the physical proof of God that we seek. The true journey starts on the inside.

As long as the scientific community as a whole remains ignorant to the other half of this true story, there will always be war.

At this time, I would invite you to read an earlier post of mine; "Finding God Within & with-out a glass of water" (General Forum)

good thinking

Can science prove that water is wet? You know that water is wet because you know what wet is. Try explaining what wet is without using wet or soaked or any other term that refers to the cause or effect of water or wet. You either know what wet is or you don't. Science can measure the amount of water or the weight of water ect., but try proving wet. When it comes to certain things science is an idiot.

Look at the world around you, everything has a inventor/creator. 
Someone invented/created the pen, the keyboard, the computer, why not you?

HOTEP BENNU AUSAR

Very logical point of view

YOU SAID: But we must awaken to the fact that we cannot manifest the greatness of God on earth until we elevate our consciousness to allow God to come into the world thru us

Does this include WHITES and ASIANS and MIXED RACES?

No need to throw the N word around, afrikanrebel06.



Why's it gotta be like that? God loves everyone on an individual level. Anyone from any race can achieve whatever if they put their faith in the universal creator.

Hotep ChiefBlackBear

The answer to your question is amphatically YES! What in my post led you to raise this question? Mankind is the Glory of God. We are all made in Its Divine image and likeness. It is not a question of race, ethnicity or colour, but rather one of spiritual evolution. The vast majority of the people of the world are still trapped in the lower part of the spirit which is why the world is currently in the condition that it is in. While it is true that many African descended and indigenous peoples have at some point displayed a high understanding of God and Creation at different points throughout history, the obvious reality now is smacking us in the face with the fact most have lost their understanding and knowledge of Self. And it is not through faith alone that we realize our Divinity but through the living of Truth (especially in the face of challenges).

"mankind is the glory of God"

why do you say that?
Was it harder for The One to create the blood-thirsty one than a grain of sand?
Is it because you think it has more intelligence than the grasshopper?

Or is your god truly a jealous god?
Is it from this favouritism that stems the sins of the most-loved?

"mankind is the glory of God" only means that Man (man and woman) are created in the image and likeness of God (this according to the scriptures, but it is also true!). This simply means that though the universal consciousness that is God permeates all creation (including the grasshopper), it is only through Man that God can fully express Itself in the world. An example that was given to me by my teacher, Ra Un Nefer Amen, is the analogy of a great pianist like Mozart or Beethoven attempting to fully express him/herself through their musical instrument. Give them a toy piano and they will still be able to play it, however, the sound that comes through will be nothing compared the sound that comes through a baby grand piano. Like with Mozart and the piano, it is with Man that God can express all of Its Divine attributes in the world. In addition, Man alone has been given free Will (as opposed to instictive behavior or being compelled by nature) and as such can choose to reunite with the source of all creation (God) by elevating His Spiritual Awareness.

There is no proof of God, only faith.

everything has its creator iyah

A very useful and powerful reasoning indeed.
I come from a long way myself. Roman Catholic Catechist => Baptist passer by while reading Assemblies of Yahweh Newsletters => finding the whole GOD Concept(as per Western Orthodox Religion) to restrictive.
I think it stands to a wider logic that we cannot but be part of the Infinite/ the All otherwise how could it be such. And by the same logic, If one's "God" is less than infinite, this "god" is subject to the Infinite so perhaps one must proceed to the boss/ The ALL.
However the conceptual understanding of "GoD" and the overstanding (experiential knowledge) of divinity are two different things, the latter being a progression of the former. based on my experience and that of many I think one must for one's overstanding be mindful of the fact of individual process and share. I think it is productive not to ridicule another's perspective where one can help it(i.e sometimes in the course of revealing truth it is unavoidable).
One lesson I have taken along my trod is that an honest seeking of truth, with persistence and integrity(and commitment to be honest) will yield truth. And as I read somewhere "There is no religion higher than truth". religion was never meant to be the end all. For me it is a cultural interpretation of the path to spirituality in its essence. therefore one who has that deep overstanding sees the deeper unity in the truth behind all the dogma and knows that he/she must proceed beyond this dogma and religion to forward to the deepest of spirituality/ divinity/ SELF.
I think many times when this issue of the existence of "god" comes up... it is an issue of whether my "God" exists. As was alluded to in an earlier comment. The dichotomy and the unreconciled issue between God and Science arises from a shallow or deficient understanding of spirituality and a precedence of religion of spirituality. This is the sad plight of the Orthodox view of Religion.
Blessed love to each one on his/her trod. Stay resolute in your quest for truth and it will yield. Spirituality, History, Science in their depths are complementary
Love and Strength
Iniko Ujaama

Lets put this question in the form of an argument.

(A) If God were to exist, then there would be good objective evidence for that.
(B) But there is no good objective evidence for God's existence.
(C) Therefore, probably God does not exist.

The basic datum appealed to here is not the fact of people's nonbelief in God, but the weakness of our evidence for God. A certain methodological principle is assumed here; that the burden of proof is always on one who claims the existence of something and if that burden is not fulfilled then it is reasonable to claim that the thing in question does not exist. In this case,God.

i still repute Bennu ausar's assertion that mankind is the Glory of God. That is hogwash. we are a curse upon ourselves and the universe of the Most High. Ours is a path of blood, or i'm blind. I do not like the idea that these bloodied hands of mine re the reflection of the Most High's.

No, let the gentle breeze be the Glory of God.

Aken Ferryman of the Underworld
Aker Guardian and Gatekeeper of the Underworld
Am-Heh - Devourer of Millions
Ament Greeter of the Dead
Ammit Devourer of the Wicked
Amun and Amun-Re The King of the Gods
Anat Mother of Gods
Andjety A precursor of Osiris
Anqet The Embracer, Goddess of Fertility and the Nile at Aswan 
Anubis God of Embalming
Anuke Goddess of War
Anuket Goddess of the Nile
Apep The Great Destroyer
Arensnuphis Anthropomorphic Nubian Deity
As Kindly God of the Desert
Astarte, Warrior Goddess of Canaan
Aten The Sun Disk and later God
Atum The All-Father
Auf (Efu Ra) An aspect of the sun god Ra
Baal, God of Thunder
Ba-Pef - The Soul
Babi - The Dominant Male Baboon God
Banebdjetet God of Lower Egypt
Bast Beautiful Cat-Goddess
Bat - Ancient Cow Goddess
Benu (Bennu) - The Bird of Creation
Bes Protector of Childbirth
Dedwen - Nubian God of Resources
Denwen - The Fiery Serpent
The Ennead The Nine Great Osirian Gods
Fetket - The Sun God's Butler
Geb God of the Earth
Gengen Wer - The Great Honker
Hapi God of the Nile River
Hathor Goddess of Music and Dance
Hatmehyt - The Fish Goddess
Haurun, The Victorious Herdsman
Heh and Hauhet Deities of Infinity and Eternity
Heqet Frog Goddess
Heret-Kau - She who is Above the Spirits
Heryshef, Ruler of the Riverbanks
Heset Goddess of Plenty
Hetepes-Sekhus - An Eye of Re
Hike God of Magic and Medicine
Horus King of the Gods on Earth
Hu God of the Spoken Word
Iabet, Cleanser of Re, Personification of the East
Ihy - The Child God
Imhotep Lord of Science and Thought
Ipy (Opet), A Mother of Osiris
Isis Queen of the Gods
Iusaas - Creator Goddess
Kabechet Helper of Anubis
Kek and Kauket, Deities of Darkness, Obscurity and Night
Khenmu The Great Potter
Kherty - Ram-headed God
Kephri The Great Scarab
Khonsu God of the Moon
Maat Lady of Truth and Order
Mafdet Goddess of Scorpions and Snakes
Mahaf - The Ferryman
Mahes The Lord of the Massacre
Male Child Gods of Egypt
Mandulis - The Lower Nubian Sun God
Mehen Defender of the Sun Boat
Mehet-Weret - Cow Goddess of the Sky
Menhit Lion-headed War Goddess
Mertseger Guardian of the Valley of the Kings
Meskhenet - Goddess of Childbrith
Mihos - Son of Bastet
Min God of Fertility
Montu, Warrior and Solar God
Mut Grandmother of the Gods
Nefertem Lord of the Sunrise
Nehebkau, the God who Joined the Ka to the Body
Nekhbet Goddess of the Power of Kings
Neith Goddess of War and Funerals
Nephthys Lady of the Wings
Nun and Naunet Gods of Chaos and Water
Nut Goddess of the Firmament
The Ogdoad The Primordial Creation Gods
Onuris The War God
Osiris Lord of the Dead
Pakhet The Strength of Woman
Panebtawy - The Child God
Peteese and Pihor - Brother Gods
Ptah The Creator
Qadesh - Goddess of Esctasy and Sexual Pleasure
Re (Ra) The Sun God
Renenutet Goddess of the Harvest
Reshep - The Syrian War God
Sah and Sopdet (Sothis) The Astral God and Goddess
Satet Goddess of the Inundation
Satis Guardian of the Borders
Sebiumeker - Meroitic God of Procreation
Sefkhet-Abwy - Goddess of Writing and Temple Libraries
Seker The Resurrected Osiris
Sekhmet The Eye of Ra
Sepa - Centipede God
Serapis the Composit God
Serqet (Selkis) Scorpion Goddess
Seshat Goddess of writing, measurements
Set God of Evil
Shay - Personified Destiny
Shesmetet - Leonine Goddess
Shesmu Demon god of the Win Press
Shu God of the Air and Sky
Sia - The Perceptive Mind
Sobek Guard of the Gods
Sons of Horus Gods of the Viscera and the Canopic Jars
Sopedu - The Border Patrol God
Ta-Bitjet - A Wife of Horus
Tasenetnofret - The Good Sister
Taweret Goddess Demoness of Birth
Tayet - Goddess of Weaving
Tefnut Goddess of Moisture
Tatenen - "Father of Gods" and the God of the Rising Earth
Thoth God of Wisdom
Wadj Wer - The Pregnant God
Wadjet The Serpent Goddess
Weneg - Ancient Son of Re
Wepwawet (Upuaut) The Opener of the Ways
Wosret - Goddess of Thebes
Yah - Another Moon God
Yamm - God of the Sea

Here is a SHORT list of gods that came before yahweh. How is it that all these gods that where here way before yahweh, but yahweh (the monotheistist god) is still creadited with creation? All religion that came before the current god is dissmissed as myth. Why?
Do you know the story of yahweh? That he was side by side with el-gol at the time of his creation? He was a simple god of war. And now he is the roots of all big 3 religions.
Why do people who live in the modern world (use the internet, drive cars, ect..) accept a belief system that came from the bronze age? Why is science dissmissed over a book that involves a man talking to snakes or shrubs. Not to mention men like "religous archaeologist" such as David Ben-Gurion and Israel Finkelstein who set out to prove the story of exodus but came up with nothing. No flight from Egypt, no wandering in the desert, and no dramatic conquest of the promised land. No Egyptian chronicle mentions this episode either, not even in passing. So the whole story of Moses is complete and utter non since. Thus the 10 commandments, witch was given to Moses falls to this same fate.
Yet people still cling to this non since and thus retard society with intolerance, ingnorance, and even holy wars. Why?