Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

White supremacy in Black movements

I am speaking here about all Black Earth-Based Movements including the Rastafari Movement.

White people or persons of a light complexion can never be real leaders in a Black based movement. This is the simple fact. Titles of leadership, eldership and control must always be in the hands of real Black people in a Black movement. They are not allowed to help decide for the Black masses whom they should follow and they should not be allowed to be the spokespeople for Blacks.

A Black movement is about correcting earthly imbalances, which start with all symbols and ultimately who is in control. Its first obligation is the ongoing drive to dismantle White superiority on Earth. So any White person/Light skinned person who is trying to be a leader in a Black Earth-Based movement is being doubly dishonest and twice as oppressive. First they try to conceal from the masses that they are already privileged in the earthly western-based systems whether they want these privileges or not, and secondly because of that dishonesty which is the hallmark of the ongoing White superiority complex, they then try to demand privileges through vying for positions of leadership and eldership in Black movements.  

They come to the movement dishonest as whites and until they change they remain dishonest in the Black movement, and that is being the Ultimate oppressive white /light-skinned person, even if they are unaware of it.

I see it and I know it and any honest person would admit it.  

Ignorant white males/Light-skinned people who operate with this double denial in a Black movement can only exist with one conduct and that is the domineering and distracting attitudes of white male arrogance. (the hallmark of White superiority) They cannot operate any other way, as they are always dishonest in the system even if they are unconscious of it. Their constant vying for Black attention demonstrates this daily.  

Their constant belittling of Blacks (even ignorant ones) whom they cannot understand is also another characteristic of this. They operate within underground networks of contacts forever seeking to undermine any Black person whom they feel can clearly articulate the way forward and show up their illegitimacy. The first trick is to try to portray to others an impression of their closeness to informed Blacks so they can feed and trade on that illusion. Then they surround themselves with the symbols and rhetoric of Blackness.

A real white person or anyone who looks white, who is first honest with themselves will not try to become a leader in any aspect of a Black Earth-Based Movement as they cannot experience what it is to be Black on Earth. They can only learn from Black experiences and develop spiritually.  

Their ongoing conscious and unconscious drive for popular recognition within Black movements if allowed unchecked knows no bounds and as one door closes they will push for another. They want to be seen in the ultimate positions of leadership in all sectors of this physical world. They simply cannot have it in a Black Earth-Based Movement.

When they do not acknowledge this and act on this fact, then they cannot operate any other way other than through the conduct of White Male arrogance (be they males of females) and for this they are the ultimate thieves and deceivers in a Black movement. Any White person/fair-skinned mixed race person who does not first acknowledge this and leave Blacks to lead in all areas of a Black Earth-Based movement are the worst enemies of Black people.  

Another role for really enlightened Whites in a Black movement today is to expose these truths and help uproot and expose other Whites or fair skinned people who try to usurp the legitimate authority or bring more division and distractions to a Black Earth-Based movement. This is the truth of conduct that continually demonstrates their understanding of right order and spiritual growth. They work towards the restoration of truth and justice on earth.

Justice dictates that right order and respect must always be given in the right order. A Black Earth-Based Movement is to restore on earth Legitimate Black Leaders and Elders in all sectors of control and Earth-Based power.  

No white or light-skinned person can ever be a legitimate leader in a Black Earth-Based Movement irrespective of how enlightened they are. A Black Earth-Based Movement's first responsibility is to elevate its original Black symbols and real Black people to positions of legitimate leadership in all areas of the earth-based movement.

Whites can only get blessings through developing in the spiritual aspects of a Black movement, as only in essence all things remain equal. There can be no other way until there is a full restoration of equal opportunity on the entire earth.

This point often heard from ignorant ones about Rastafari being a separate movement that is fair and equal to all, can only exist in realizing its spirituality but in a material/physical sense this is an illusion. Any Black Movement including Rastafari is first about restoring and returning all that was stolen and or corrupted to its legitimate place. This means symbols as well as real Black people should be in control of their own movement and destiny and this should not be dictated to Blacks by any White/ Light skinned person even if they genuinely embrace Africanness. Pan-Africanism is also a Black Struggle that should be only lead by real Black people and not any white person's definition of who are suitable Blacks.

Bless-ed Love!

I hear what the I is saying.  I must agree about white folx not taking leadership roles... Look at what has gone on from time with the "reins" in white mon hands.  

No matter how ILLAHFULL the intentions are, when one grows up with the privileges of white skin, it is VERY difficult to even realize the white supremacy actions being itinued.

I know as a woman of european ancestry that I can only humble I self, seek JAH, EXPOSE TRUTH, Itinue on I trod to do whatevah I can to restore BALANCE as the I has stated.

I feel that pride and ego seem to get into it.  That is why some white folx act like "why cant i be ras?" and "what about one love?"

IT IS NOT ABOUT THAT... IT DOES NOT MATTER whether one is referred to as RAS... GET OVER THAT... What is more important is that ONE SEEKS TO ASSIST and EXPOSE what has been done and ITINUES to be done!  RACISM STILL GOES On.... white supremacy still goin strong... UNTIL THAT DAY... AFRIKANS WILL FIGHT... SIGHT ... so FIGHT and I will assist and keep the FIYAH of TRUTH blazin!

Humbly and with no ego trippin...

Give thanks for the I's reasonings and Ites...

JAH BLESS ALL I's

Jahseekah

very insightful!
i wholeheartedley agree with you. contrary to what some may think this is NOT reverse racism but simple truth. black movements and indeed black spirituality is not simply about the spiritual element but also, as you said, about redressing earthly imbalances. sometimes one must lean COMPLETELY to the left in order to re-balance the boat

just as we say that the experience is the evidence, having never experienced racisim and the brunt of the effects of white privilage how can a white person legitimately lead a black movement? how can they have the moral authority to inspire and the restore justice?
being involved in the movement and learning all they can from it is fine and commendable, but any attempt at leadership reduces the movement to pure farce..

greetings!
True I. though in rastafari there is no leader,  except JAH.

peace, love and unity!

I have no problem with anyone who wishes to call my views divisive as I speak from my own experiences, observations and research. So all comments are welcome.  

I am very aware of the contributions of many whites and mixed people in the past especially as most truths were hidden from the average Black person. But today it is different and real Blacks have access to all this information so better choices can be made. All the efforts of those in the past did not change the system. I will now take better-informed real Black men and Women who have both the historical information and the experiences to advance this struggle. It is racism that blocks many Blacks and Whites from seeing suitable Black role models especially when the suitable Blacks are continually undermined by those with light complexions.

I have never met one fair-skinned person who can clearly articulate the reality of racism from the perspective of the historically informed Black person. They cannot, simply because they do not experience the extreme pressures of the system. And as such are not suitable for leadership in a Black movement to determine what is or is not legitimate for Black people.

For example, although I do not support the way Christianity is taught and preached and as a matter of fact most mainstream religions, I pull back when I know I am speaking to a Black person as they interpret these religions through their real experiences and derive other things from it. Of course, I will not indulge them but I will not pound them to the ground because I disagree. For as fraudulent I might feel the teachings are, there is another reality about them molding it to suit their own understanding and from their own point of view.

However, my approach is different when I know that a light-skinned person or a White person is trying to promote it in an African Based movement as what I know they are inadvertently preaching is to stop learning from our Black ancestors and to 'wait for some white saviour'.

Real Grassroots Blacks who have little exposure to history start interpreting these things differently as they learn more from history so I remain cautious and don't outright dismiss them when they speak badly (in MY view). It is they the movement is about informing the most so we need them around.

No white skinned/light skinned person should ever be allowed to dictate to real Black people especially Blacks who are developing their own awareness and concepts to help themselves.

According to this post, we should perhaps follow in the white supramist tradition of practicing the brown paper bag test to our leaders, as this post suggests that it is MELANIN which, ultimately makes a good leader, rather then dedication to the Afrikan Liberation Movement and a Pan Afrikan Worldview. Flesh seems to be the measuring stick for good leadership then, yes?

Though I would agree that most times (but not all) light-skinned AFRIKANS have been trained by a white supremist/willie lynch type of indoctranation, (as have dark skinned brothaz/sistaz), making such broad statements about degrees of (or lack of) melanin as the measuring stick for good leadership is, in my humble opinion, a DIRECT result of white supremacy at its best.

So much for the likes of His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I, Adam Clayton Powell, eh? Even Malcom X, huh? Elijah Mohammad too. No, instead, let us run and elect Clarence Thomas. I mean, after all, he should pass the melanated leader test, right?

Am I the only one smelling the stench of Willie Lynchism here?


TOO LIGHT TO LEAD?

(http://www.boomshaka.com/HIM/him51.gif)

(http://www.nba.com/media/heat/bh_adam_powell.jpg)

(http://www.seventhfam.com/images/mspic1.jpg)

(http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/vansertima.jpg)

(http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/rogers.jpg)


ROOTS

There are REAL BLACK PEOPLE today who have the experiences and who can speak with authority on this issue and are in a position to advance it.

Well I know for sure I am not trying to be a leader for all Africans, I am just speaking for myself, but I often wonder when people ‘big up’ our ancestors what do they have in mind and who are they really trying to promote.

I know many ordinary real Black people who with a little support can articulate so much, but these privileges that others want are the obstacles.

So I am for turning the system upside down and supporting people who have the experience of racism and are learning how to articulate them. They are the frontline people we should all support and promote in this earth movement.

i think it is also important to remember how the basic human psyche works in terms of judging not only the ability of people to lead but the ACCEPTABILITY of these leaders by their proposed flock.
while no one can deny the contribution that both whites and light skinned africans have made to the promotion of african affairs worldwide,  who can be a more effective and accepted leader of african people?  someone who benefits from white privilege or some one who does not? someone who has had the experience to see the system for what it is or someone who cannot completely identify with the people they propose to lead? while i personally have more of a problem with white europeans attempting to impose thier images and opinions on black movements than light skinned african people, i can certainly see some truth in ayinde's position that light skinned africans also benefit from white privilege so may, despite thier best intentions compromise the movement. while of course this cannot be applied to EVERY SINGLE light skinned african, we must look at the general reality of the situation. remember we are dealing with REAL EARTHLY IMBALANCES THAT MUST BE ADDRESSED IN A REAL WAY.
in a time where we are in sorely need of strong and positive role models for our young people who are already beset with euroccentric images that seek to define thier self worth, what is needed are strong black men and women to overturn centuries of white supremacy that has bred SELF HATE among our people.

    I man agree with the I's post, in reference to white people within a black movement ;this is un-questionable and and un- deniable. though I feel that putting light skinned BLACKS in the same boat as whites is a grave mistake!

   Yan hit the nail on the head with his post. this is a real problem and it must be dealt with in a REAL way!
 
   But for anyone to say ,any black person (of any shade) dosnt experience rascism ,or dosnt know what black struggle really is, or worst of all to say black people benefit from white previledge. is absurd and dis-honest. fact is, this division among our own black people ,is a direct intention to cause contention by white supremists; and it IS usually perpetuated  and  acted out by lightskinned blacks! Though it is usually dark skinned blacks that maintain the balance. By not letting lightskinned blacks forget who they ARE, and to whom they belong.
     
         I am fully aware of what the "color caste system" has done to our people. And know lightskinnened people have been the downfall of many a black movement. though in truth usually the problem results from lightskinned people separating  themselves from dark skin movements( feeling some false superiority and self-hatred confussion),and starting their own. not usually from  being in a leadership position of a darkskinned one.
     
             light skin is never a good reason to be a leader. The fact is white supremists only pretend to prefer lightskinned blacks as they would love to see all blacks, either serving them or dead. But its true that if forced to chose; they prefer lightskin around them and dark at a distance. I have seen this many times; in areas where there are many blacks, light and dark, they know they have to hire one ;so they chose light over dark! But in a area with few blacks they treat light as if he were dark. and in areas with none ,they welcome one  or two  light or dark as their maskot ,they see it as a novelty, and sometimes they prefer dark "authentic black" maskot to prove their not rascist. there are many aspects to white supremacy; all black people suffer in it.
   
      we need to stop this feild nigger, house nigger, mentality thats held us down so long. for sometimes the "house nigger" can be instramental in delievering the poison in massa's dinner. and sometimes house nigga might pretend to control feild nigga, when massa's looking. But at night when I&I africans (children of rape or not) come together to plan revolution, I&I are one people. seen! If house nigga want hold on massa's skirt, and eat of him scrapes, he a go poison to! fiyah fi traitor! none of us should forget that.
     
        many extremily light blacks are exposed to and feel racism that other darker blacks are not aware of, because white people often say things in front of them unaware. that they would never say if blackie was in sight. do you suggest this is white privelidge for lightie? do you think lightie feels no pain at this?, becuz he cant identify with his own blackness? or that he is not aware he is being insulted? does this make him less of a victim to white supremacy? Yes this is just a different aspect of the exact same problem. this is how ellijah mohameds teacher (cant remember name right now) gained knowledge about the white man and used this knowledge to counter him!
   Rastafari culture is by black people for black people. I&I cant allow no one to divide black people from their birthright. I do not support mixed marriage ,it is not the time , but the children that result are black, if one of their parents is black! un-questionably!  I&I need to support  the endangered black on black family with a fulness, a true! but this dosnt mean denying light blacks their blackness! how can this benefit I&I at all?                                                          
           
            As a child I cried many a night after going to work with I father and seeing how white people treated him, store clerks looked at him so on; and many times he made more money then them( I think he thought money would make him equal) they'd still look down at him. and I'd get so mad I would want to fight, sometimes in I youth ,id want to do the things ,they expected I to do, since id be blamed anyway. I father would say" just smile, dont cause trouble.,they will get theirs one day" my grand father would say" in world war 2 after pearl harbor, when airraid alarms would go off; i'd pray please God let this be foreal, let  these white people get bombed out of existence, even if it means I get bombed too!" He was one of the first black entrepreneurs in pasadena california, I sister is the worlds first black stunt wombman, I next sister studied many years with Jonathan Hendrick Clarke, and finally became a doctor, who is now challenging white supremist ideology in medicine and attemping to indroduce african princibles into the feild. I uncle is Eldridge  Cleaver of the black panther's { recently assasinated in oakland 1998} I father personly trained and helped to establish business's for more than than two dozen ghetto youths, without formal eduction, many of wich are now very successful. And as for I,  ,I'm still young, but I am also an A black entrepreneur; owning I own business,( now facing the same challenges as I father, doing things twice as good as everyone else to get the same credit. I chose not to just smile, and hope, ands pray, I chose to fight!) now Im trying to use the income to start an, african traditional sustainable agriculture, Nyabinghi house. wich will double as an education center for black african youth to get in touch with the earth and their culture. now as I have had no support other than Jah so far. To reach this goal , and in light of the fact, that in I area there is no other Blacks, light or dark, as qualified as I to do this task. do you imply that  I should not acomplish I mission, based on the fact ,that of I black fathers two wives I was born of the lightest one and inherited much of her complexion?  or that I should decline leadership even if black people CHOOSE I as a  leader in a black based movement? even after I own family has spilled their own african blood for I&I freeman? even after I foreparents have been enslaved ,beatin, torn, raped, and robbed ,time ,and time again., you still elect to put I in the boat with the whiteman so he can feed I&I to the sharks!
           
           having said that, I agree ,absolutely ,concious dark skin black people have been and should be the leaders and role models,in black movements. true , good intentions are NOT enough, true in light of reality,dark skinned blacks should be very suspicous before even allowing light skin blacks to enter the movement let alone lead it! as many ,do to their self hatred ,not their "white privelidge", have comprised this strruggle. many have also been instramental in both anceint and modern times. if black people cant identify with black people, who can I&I identify with? it cant be only people who look exactly like us ,with the exactly same skin tone ,as I&I are to diverse(even in our own family) for that!  As I&I need as many concious black people within the movement as possible, no one light or dark skin should propose to lead anyone!  let the people within the movement ,  propose who they feel should lead ,particular aspects of  the movement, and if that means sometimes a light black gets in a leadership role, as long as they are black ,then great! and if he dosnt do a good job ,or comprimises the itegrity of the movement in any way remove  him from his role!   Let the black JAH father of creation rule us all!
           
            to remove all light blacks from black movements is unrealistic and counter productive. as all concious black people have something important to add to the black movements. so instead let's remove the self hatred that causes this skism! and remove the colonized mind that holds us back! has'nt the whiteman done enough harm with divide and conquer! remember a nation divided among themselves, will surely fall! as tree without  roots! BLACK IS BLACK! DON'T GIVE I SOME BILL CLINTON RHETORIC ABOUT MIXED RACE LIGHT SKINNED BLACKS NEEDING TO CLASSIFIED AS A SEPERATE RACE(EVEN HE WOULDNT ACCEPT LIGHTSKINS AS WHITE) I&I ALREADY KNOW THAT TACTIC, LOOK WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE KING OF SPAIN TOLD RAPED AND MIXED NATIVE AMERICANS THEY WERE'NT NATIVE AMERICANS THEY WERE "BETTER"(BUT COULD NEVER BE SPANISH)HE CALLED THEM MEXICANS! THE REST IS HISTORY!
ONE JAH, ONE AIM, ONE BLACK DESTINY; NYABINGHI BIRTHRIGHT, ROYAL, IMPERIAL, PATRIARCHAL, BLACK SUPREMACY! BLACK ARCHITECT OF CREATION, BLACK BIBLE OWNER, BLACK LAWGIVER AND COPYRIGHT HOLDER OF ITERNITY, IN THE ORDER OF MELCHISEDEK!ALL GLORY, AND ALL SANCTIFICATION UNTO H.I.M. JAH! RASTAFARI , SELASSIE I!

I have read this thread with much interest today. As well as the title "White Supremacy in Black movements" and the responses received i ask my self this question. Why this very article from Ayinde?

Is it a personal attack on ones on this forum, perhaps Rootswoman or her friend, in light of the occurence in reasoning forum? If it is then I say this needs to be clarified in order that this reasoning becomes clearer.

You said,

"White people or persons of a light complexion can never be real leaders in a Black based movement. This is the simple fact. Titles of leadership, eldership and control must always be in the hands of real Black people in a Black movement. They are not allowed to help decide for the Black masses whom they should follow and they should not be allowed to be the spokespeople for Blacks"

Well looking at the bigger picture indeed you make a valid point regarding racism even in the black community! Growing up in Africa i have witnessed the preferential treatment light skinned children enjoyed over we "darkies". It unquestionably is a privilege to be light rather than dark sad, as it may seem even in today's world.

Organisations, corporations, Institutions and majority of the public do not see anything wrong in favouring a light skin over a dark skin this is the norm, simply switch on your TV and observe this in your adverts, newspapers, magazine, etc. So much so that the war in Liberia is somewhat based around this argument: Why do the light skin Africans think they have to always rule?

It is now almost a self fulfilling prophecy;concocted by the media at large whereby a light skin black is cast as representative of black and therefore expected to fly the banner on behalf of the remaining blacks.

Well InI are a product of our thoughts and Ideas .It is up to black people to look for all the positive element of a leader within Africa and amongst its sons and daughters. Mothers, Fathers, Friends, colleague treating everyone equally without resorting to shades of complexion as a symbol of beauty!

However, i am not going to sit here and brew over this, because it is pointless and does not profit me. Neither does it shed any light really and truly on the plight of Africans in general on the world today.

I think to primarily use shades/tones of complexion, as a measuring bar towards blackness in its self is erroneous! Many dark Black looking people from the Cari-beyond have mixed blood anyway taking into account- raping and intermarriages! How far back do you want to go to claim "Blackness". If you come to Africa the heart of Blackness where will you as a Caribbean person fit?
Many people from the Caribbean have found this to be the case upon setting foot in Africa and wanting to establish themselves have encountered petty barriers such as enthicity, and religion.

The main issue is here is a common enemy (the white man) and the battle should be directed against this enemy.

Malcom X cannot be regarded as less of a blackman, neither can JJ Rawlings ex-president of Ghana simply because they are mixed race that in itself will be wrong. Equally there are also many dark skin leaders in Africa who have set very good and I dare say unchallenged legacies in government till present day in terms of taking Africa forward into new eras. Light skin/Dark skin black people who are so corrupt that they are inwardly base should not be allowed to enjoy any position of leadership within an Black progressive organisation.

In fact, if Africans truly lived on the basis of true love, then no man would be able to deceive the people and ascend unto the position of a leader amongst us as a great purification will set in immediately! He would not even be appointed into a position of leadership, as intellectual and spiritual knowledge will not suffice to place him in a position of authority amongst us, and people will see through his/her falseness.

What black people and the African people need is a leader with a sense of duty and loyalty, one who is prepared to lead by example, and go beyond the call of duty taking Africa to a new plateau in terms of establishing justice, fairness and equality and committed to true African values

A loyalty to the cause of Black upliftment and pride a duty bound by undying, unyielding and all embracing love to the cause. One with a noble soul.

If such man were found amongst us African, be he very dark or light so long that he/she is of African stock. Then i say to him should that position of leadership be given.

 
This discussion is about further developing points raised in this thread:
[link=http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/reasoning/?board=general;action=display;num=1060835594]Racial Classification[/link]
Posted: Aug 14th, 2003, 12:33am
by Ras_Tyehimba

Often, reasonings on these boards are develop based on either an experience with someone or an observation within a discussion on the very board. I deliberately placed it in a general context utilizing observations from past and recent experiences.


I have very often explained the importance of integrity to evaluate a person and I generally do not consider someone to be well informed if they lie or distort to score points. I look at conduct and saw how easy truths can be overlooked when people feel their skin threatened.

Racism is more than just Black and White and I feel the people who experience it on the worst levels should be helped to become able to articulate it for themselves. They are best able to convey many more subtle truths because of real experiences and they should not be held back in favor of any other people who lack the real Black experiences.

This is the context of the post and other areas I do not mind developing later:
[link=http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/reasoning/?board=general;action=display;num=1060835594]Racial Classification[/link]
Posted: Aug 14th, 2003, 12:33am
by Ras_Tyehimba

I am mostly looking at how the words I placed are being taken out of their context and seperated from the necessary qualifiers to suit the agenda of whosoever is commenting.

Greetings all

I will give my opinion on this topic "White Supremacy in Black movements. Some of the people who responded to this topic either missed the crux of the matter or are hiding behind intellectual dishonesty.

For starters, on the point of the article being divisive, i would assert that poeple are quite divided anyway, and true unity can only be built upon the foundation of truth. Anybody asserting that something brings disunity among something that is not really united in the first place is skirting the real issues. Any people wanting unity between conscious and unconscious people are caught up in an illusion that is fueled by their own ignorance and/or they are blinded by their own intentions of personal gain. After reasoning with a lot of people it is easy to recognize the language of those that feel personally threatened by something, bringing up all kinds of distractions to sidetrack the real issues. Distractions include taking parts of what was said and use it by itself to make it look like the author is saying someting that he didn't really say. It is painfully obvious that there is no shortcut to reasoning about this scourge of white supremacy regardless of how personally painful it may be for some people.

Ras Benjamin wrote:


In no part in Ayinde orginal post and his responses did he try to separate who is Black/Afrikan, from who is not Black/Afrikan. Also he did not say that whites or light skinned Afrikans can't contribute to the overturning of White Supremacy. In fact he acknowledged that there were light skinned people that have made valid contributions. Its not that people who look almost white are white or that they are insignificant, the matter is that many of them have still held on to the arrogance of their lighter skin privelege while still spewing revolutionary rhetoric.

As Ayinde rightly stated:



One must be very clear about how the mechanisms of White Supremacy works. In America and other places there is the 'one drop' rule. Once you have one drop of Black blood you are considered black.  However there is a next point to consider, that being, white over brown over black (White Supremacy). Meaning that there are distinctions made among Black people according to their complexion. Thus  persons who looks almost white, or has light skin is given preferential treatment over darker Africans. So thus people who are obviuosly Afrikan are treated much worse than lighter skinned people, and it it these Afrikans that experience the full blast of racism. DOES ANYBODY WANT TO REFUTE THIS REALITY?


Posted By: ROOTSWOMAN, Rastafari Speaks Forum
Date: Friday, 2 May 2003, at 4:24 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Can the Whiteness of Mind be Changed?




http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/cgi-bin/forum/storeroom/config.pl?read=19895

As Rootwoman alluded so eloquently in a previous discussion quoted above, who feels its, knows it.

Irregardless of clothing, revolutionary rhetoric, and any other externality, there is no shortcut to reasoning through these critical issues that affect all people, albeit in different waY. Assertions of humility, loyalty, understanding, are words that can be uttered by anyone. so at the end of the day, how people act in relation to their words when the going gets tough, will be the ultimate judge of their INTEGRITY. It is very clear to me that integrity is not something a person can just wake up one day and realize, rather it has to be worked upon, through reasoning and continously seeking to refine character. Reading a lot of books and gathering/repeating a lot of information does not bring integrity. As many who have been on the board a while would understand 'IT TAKES INTEGRITY TO REASON' Having integrity means having the courage to face the reality that exists, and step outside the comfort zone of one's own comfort zone if necessary.

Ayinde:



I agree with this and think it it very relevant in conquering this Global White Supremacist Order.

Tyehimba

Greetings,

Very good reasonings brought forth by several Idren.  Permit I to quote and respond to brothah Muata's wordsound:



ABSOLUTELY! And though I absolutely agree and promote the principle of BLACK PEOPLE TEACHING/LEADING BLACK PEOPLE, I must say that SKIN/FLESH in and of itself can truly never be the measuring stick for good leadership.  As we all know, we have PLENTY of dark skinned NEGRO-SAXONS runnin' bout di place, betraying InI with cut-throat diligence.  In InI sight, a good leader/teacher of Afrikan Descendants to be an Afrikan (of whatever shade) who has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to being a front line warrior in the Afrikan struggle, one is CONSISTANT in his/her dedication to relentlessly defend the Integrety of I-thiopia (Afrika), and one who's MINDSET and WORKS benefit the entire Global Afrikan Village with its varieties of complexions.  I'll take one of Haile Selassie's complexion (and nature) to be InI leader over the likes of Clarence Thomas ANY DAY!  Then again, should Haile Selassie resembled our beautiful dark skinned Nigerian brothaz/sistaz, I would have accepted his leadership without question over a light skinned negro like Colon Powell ANY DAY.  

So...as you can see, it is not the degree of melanin which makes good leaders, but MINDSET and WORKS/ACTION towards the Afrikan Collective.



WELL SAID! To those who overstand, no explanation is necessary.  To those who won't, none can be given.



ASHE!!!!!!!!!!  From your lips to the ears of the Collective!



Again, well said my brothah!  If one begins to reject those Afrikans of mixed heritage, then one LIMITS the Afrikan Collective, and DENIES 3/4 of the Afrikan World.  What about all those MILLIONS of Afrikans in Brazil, Cuba, the Caribbean, ameriKKKa, Polynesian islands, Asia, the so-called Middle East, and yes, even Ethiopia and Afrika herself?!  InI sight this type of "real blacks" versus "light skinned" as a means to our DESTRUCTION and continuing DOWNFALL.

Let a man/woman's CHARACTER, HEART/MIND and WORKS speak for itself.

Greetings Ras Tyehimba,

Again, give thanks for di I’s Word Sound and Powah.  InI am in agreement with much di I beautifully expressed, however I have contention with but one comment:



Permit I to respectfully suggest that when one makes CLEAR DISTINCTIONS between “REAL BLACKS” versus (in opposition to) “LIGHT SKINNED” Blacks, there is an unequivocal and undisputable SEPERATION and DIVISION made.  And as we all know, one falsehood spoils a thousand truths.  Having said that, I will be the first to also say that InI sight much truth in Ayinde’s words, for only BLACK PEOPLE (in our various shades) can truly LEAD/TEACH Black People, but when we begin using the brown paper bag test to define leadership, InI sight this as contributing to the WHITE SUPREMIST DIVIDE AND CONQUER PRINCIPLE, which has and continues to play a part in our DESTRUCTION as an Afrikan Collective.

I will also be the first to say that due to historical pattern, InI should rightfully SUSPECT light skinned Afrikans (without being BLINDED to some dark skinned Afrikans who would betray InI), in positions of leadership/teacher, UNTIL THEY PROVE THEIR INTENTIONS AND WORKS.  Once they have PROVEN their intentions to be RIGHTEOUSLY AFRIKAN, then let the Afrikan Collective EMBRACE them as a brothah/sistah, for UNITED WE STAND, AND DIVIDED WE WILL ALWAYS FAIL/FALL.

Again, I will ask this question which remains unanswered:

WHAT and WHO is a “REAL BLACK”?  

“Real black” as in the likes of Clarence Thomas and/or Condoleezza Rice, or a “real black” as in Adam Clayton Powell, Bob Marley, and the Honorable Elijah Mohammed.?

(http://www.angelfire.com/tv/enhist/images/slavery.JPG)

ROOTS

There should be no doubt in our minds, that is PURE blacks, NEGROID AFRIKAN people on this planet with black/dark complexion and Negroid features, who are more likely to be subjugated, raped and murdered. In any case, so few people with “fair” complexion are victimized that it's not even a number. Every action produces an equal and opposite reaction. The reaction of Negro-blacks to retrench multiracial so-called black people, non-blacks and all whites alike, but inspire Negroid blacks is merely Self-Preservation. Who is to deny that Negro-blacks of today to be the most victimized by whites also when they live in a predominantly black area or a black country? Who is to deny to Negro-Afrikans Inspiration and Unity?

“FAIR” SKINNED PEOPLE GREATLY BENEFITED FROM THE OPPRESSION OF BLACK CITIZENS OVER THE CENTURIES and its Negroid blacks citizens not getting it fair share of the benefits out of the relationship. Thus, I do not hold any allusions about  people with “fair” complexion willing to help us solve our problems. They play off some credulous but they do not fool the informed and educated Afrikans of the Negroid Black PURE Race. We cannot afford to compromise the Truth in the hope that it will release pent up Multiracial, non-Blacks or whites altruism constrained by black methodology.

I have the faith that with Separation, inspiration and Unity, Negro-Afrikans (the most victimized in this world) can rise to reach greatness and full potential, despite Asians, Arabs, Europeans, light skinned so called Blacks rape and exploitation and them being Upset at our Message and Method. So to Negro-Amerikkkans, Negro-Brazilians, Negro-Untouchables of INDIA, Negro Australian Aboriginals, Negro-Black Caribbeans, Negroid Afrikans, Negro-Europeans, NEGROID people all around the world, the time has come to start working to preserve Black Kulture and History as well as preserve our Blackness and prerogative. NEGRO-BLACK NATIONALISM is self-Defense, it is our only hope to withstand the EVIL designs of modern Materialism.


Bantu-Kelani.

     YES I, excellent reasoning, as this is bringing forth very important topics to I struggle.  

      Give thanks Ras Benjamine, Rootswoman, for I&I's needed insight, And Ras Tyehimba for making a very clear and true reasoning; as I would not try and dispute at all that dark africans are treated with the worst downpression, of any one on earth and absolutely feel the full blast of rascism. for this is the very intention of the color caste system, to declare white the highest and black the lowest; and everyone else is supposed to line up in order according to their shade, between these two, while fighting each other to reach the top. And whatever caste you are your supposed to help hold blackie down! hence the saying "if you white you right, if you brown stick around, but if you black get back, here comes the attack!
     
         I would just like to remind I&I that many of these light-skinned africans, are the direct result of racism on dark africans, and many times, it is attempt by dark africans to sidestep this downpression in future generations. though this tactic has failed horribly!
     
        I dont think anyone in this paticular reasoning, so-far would try to deny dark africans rightful place within our struggle, and within our world, in fact, speaking for I-self, I have no intention, to TRY and obtain leadership with-in our stuggle, I having enough trouble trying to lead I-self!

        Though I am doing I best to HELP, the forward movement(whose leaders are already chosen)of I&I culture, toward placing africans in I&I rightful place on earth,once again; and I am very sure this could still be accomplished with or without I! though I must serve H.I.M., and serve I purpose!

       As I have said already, let the elders, furthermore the people within an african movement decide who is their leader, and let them be black and have itegrity, and princpality's,  and characta! whether they are light or dark!
       
       I man's only arguements here are; first with Ayinde, not in his message,  or in his knowledge of the rightful focal point of I&I movement, or racial complexities within white supremist idealogy, but in his clear separtion of africans from africans, worst of all CLASSING THEM WITH WHITES, this is cause for  reasoning, as I feel it distorts and diverts the importance of the topic by making his meaning unclear! This may be a type unity, but it's not centralisation!

       Secondly, with Bantu Kelani, in her statement;
  "so few people with 'fair' complexion are victimized that its not even a number" this is rediculous! I am surprised to here such a statement from a sista as knowledgeable and enlightened as you! I wont mention the thousands of important present day and historical brothas and sistas, victimized over and over.  im not arguing whether darkskin africans have it worse, this is obvious.but this statement hurts I becuz,  of the thousands of victimized lightskinned africans ,also victimized everyday in this country,  often killed, consistantly raped, at least a dozen of wich I personally know! whos blood and pain never reach the newspaper,often at the hands of whitecops. this statements negates their life, blood, and pain as meaningless, and non-existent.

   If I&I dont remember these lost and torn brothas and sistas, who will. many of them died for our people, resisting white supremacy! I think your statement came out of emotion, please watch what you say, as your statements are powerful! careful where you shoot them, you cant take back a bullet once it has left the gun! finally I not sure about this term 'greatly' in regards to the benefits of lightskinned africans becuz of darkskin oppression. as the majority of lightskinned africans still live in the ghettos with the majority of darkskin africans. though I am very sure more light skin africans are able to get out and find it easier to get work in some feilds. I dont think but a handful of any type of black people could refer to their condition as 'great'. within this system, no matter how hard they try and pretend to be white!
  BLESSED LOVE IS BLACK SUPREMACY! ALL GLORY IN THE BLACK JAH OF CREATION!  I CALL ON ALL ARMEGEDION WARRIORS, FROM THE NORTH, JAH! FROM THE SOUTH JAH! FROM THE EAST,JAH! AND EVEN IN THE WEST, JAH! LET I&I CENTRALIZE, JAH, MAY JUSTICE AND FIYAH BE WITH I&I 4- IVER, STAND FIRM BROTHAS AND SISTAS, I&I TIME HAS COME, CLAIM YOU BIRTHRIGHT AND RAISE YOUR ARMS TO JAH RASTAFARI! ITIOPIA! ALL GLORY BE IN HIS HOLA NAME!

           

   
NOTE TO SIS KELANI : this is an apology for any mis-comunication as a result to my error of terms in your topic "images to remind" I refer to the I as "man kelani" with out consideration to how it would be percieved. I would like to be clear as to I meaning.
     in I mind I was just saying your name; as 'bantu' means 'man' as in mankind and it is in this form I was expressing my greeting , I meant no dis-respect. as I was not applying any masculine or feminine vibe to it. but I realized latter how it might have appeared, so I wanted to make I self clear,  I'll try and be more concious of I word, sound, power in the future! BLESSED LOVE!
          RAS LION KARUME MUATA OF JUDAH

This issue also speaks to many other points especially who feel that they are most entitled to reparations and would be at the front of the line for money demanding the most if it ever was to be paid. It is interesting how some pretend that they don't understand who are the real victims of racism and gender discrimination.

If people who can pass for white, are Black in the eyes of some, then those few should have no problems with Whites in a Black Movement. Some Whites now admit that they are Africans. Many can also claim they are Black based on genetics.

The original theme of this reasoning was based on this thread:
[link=http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/reasoning/?board=general;action=display;num=1060835594]Racial Classification[/link]
Posted: Aug 14th, 2003, 12:33am  by Ras_Tyehimba[/I]

A racial classification is given to a group of individuals who share a certain number of anthropological traits, which is necessary so that they not be confused with others. There are two aspects which must be distinguished, the phenotypical and genotypical. I have frequently elaborated on these two aspects.  

If we speak only of the genotype, I can find a black who, at the level of his chromosomes, is closer to a Swede than Peter Botha is.  But what counts in reality is the phenotype. It is the physical appearance which counts. This black, even if on the level of his cells he is closer than Peter Botha, when he is in South Africa he will live in Soweto. Throughout history, it has always been the phenotype which has been at issue; we mustn't lose sight of this fact. The phenotype is a reality, physical appearance is a reality.
 
###

This is one of my earlier responses on the other board.

Posted By: selassieilive [link=http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/cgi-bin/forum/config.pl?read=31560]Rastafari Speaks Board[/link]
Date: Friday, 15 August 2003, at 1:18 p.m.


Posted By: Ayinde
Date: Friday, 15 August 2003, at 1:49 p.m.
In Response To: Re: [link=http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/cgi-bin/forum/config.pl?read=31568]White Supremacy in Black movements (selassieilive)[/link]


Yes, in a general sense they are but racism plays itself out on the varying shades of shin color that negatively impacts on Blackest of people the most. This can never be dismissed in a Black Movement. Once someone can pass for white they are the wrong symbol and they will lack the necessary real Black experiences to convey the truth of racial discrimination.

For example, there was this fair-skinned Venezuelan female who went up for the miss Universe contest, when she came here she proudly say she was Black much to the amazement of many Blacks and whites in the Caribbean. (I have been to Venezuela often so I know how race is played out there) But after saying that, she was completely silly when questioned about racism in her country and made many laugh at her. You see, she lacked the real Black Man and Woman’s (by hue) experiences to articulate the issues, so instead she did us all an injustice. I have seen this often.



I am speaking about dealing with White superiority, which on its base level negatively impacts on Blacks (by skin color) the most.
(Check the extract from Diop’s book on the reasoning forum and my response to it. It is in the General Board under the heading Racial Classification on a thread started by Ras_Tyehimba.)

Anyone can be accepted into Rastafari or a Black movement but how he or she conducts himself or herself is another thing. A light skinned African automatically gets more privileges in this western dominated system so therefore they feed more into the white supremist status quo and are poor symbols for Black liberation.

They can learn and support but never lead. To restore the balance, leadership and control should return to enlighten Black African people and the Blacker the better. Once someone can get privileges in the white system then they automatically have access to more in this material world and must never get status over a more suitable Black person in a Black Movement.

Again, Blacks should decide this, as we are primarily addressing White superiority and its privileges that throw material benefits in varying degrees to those of lighter complexion. The Blacker and more informed the person is in this upside down system, the more experiences they will bring to the table to help expose and overturn this corrupt system that continually tries to disenfranchise the Blackest of people especially enlightened Black women.

Greetings Ayinde
While I agree that "historically," lighter-skinned blacks get more priviledges than darker hues, I dont think it is true across the board.  What of the exceptions to the rule?  Ones should be chosen to lead by merit, regardless of their shade of black.  If InI start choosing leaders merely on skin color, InI will be taken a risk in hoping that those dark black people can lead.  I live in the hood and see suffering black people of all shades.  When I go to work, I see black sellouts of all shades.  Are lighter skinned people to blame that there foremothers were raped(or consentual) by euro-peons?  They are not rasponsible for the shade they were born.  Now u tell them that they are not black enough to be a leader in the black communities.  With the shituation in the black communities, InI give thanks if a "light-skin" steps forward and takes the role as a  leader.  



What is a real black person?  Is the criteria based on skin color or mental?  How does white and "light-skin" equate as the same?  To Iman, this is Willie Lynch to the extreme.  Ones seperate each other so much that one group becomes identified with, and part of another, based solely on the shade of their skin.  

I sight what u are saying.  I agree that it applies to quite a few lighter skinned people here in Babylon.  I goes back to the house nigger - field nigger divide.  But it is unity InI seek.  A house divided amongst itself will never prosper.   Ones good works done for Black people should  decide for the Black masses whom they should follow and be allowed to be the spokespeople for Blacks.  Not just their shade of Blackness.  I would be more concerned about the Blackness of mind and heart.

One Black Love
selassieilive

On the 15th I responded to you twice and I wrote this:

Posted By: Ayinde [link=http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/cgi-bin/forum/config.pl?read=31568]Rastafari Speaks Message Board[/link]
Date: Friday, 15 August 2003, at 1:49 p.m.[/I]



and

Posted By: Ayinde [link=http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/cgi-bin/forum/config.pl?read=31581]Rastafari Speaks Message Board[/link]
Date: Friday, 15 August 2003, at 2:09 p.m.[/I]


I gave further clarification to real Black Person on the same day that I made the original post. I further added well-informed and enlighten to give a better idea of what I mean by a real black person.  It seams like some are not interested in what I meant by well-informed and enlightened.

       HAIL UP! AYINDE! try and listen to what I man saying, I overstand your meaning of well informed and enlightened dark black people in leadership. I agree,  not just with this but with most all of the topic! I think all enlightened black people would.
     I man input into this, is not from dis-agreement with the content, but with it's presentation! ya no see it!? the last thing I&I black race needs is division among our selves; and when you class blacks (any shade) with whites, putting I&I in the same boat as them... well as you can see from this reasoning ,division is what it creates! the white issue is not the same as the light black issue, when I&I are done dealing whitie, I&I must deal with lightie, but not as a enemy, as a brotha or sista who has forgotten who he is, and has been CONfused by the victimization  of whitie!
     I am not going to try and tell you how you should speak, or choose your words. I am only asking you to separate these two very different issues, the whiteman is the downpressor of the african, the light skin african is not; though he has been used as a tool by the downpressor,  relying on the self hatred and desperate ignorance, of lightie to enforce his so- called superiority over blackie. This is not do to lightie's illusion of priviledge, in a society where he will never be equal. but it is do to the fact I&I are like crayfish in a barrel trying to climb,crawl , and push each other to the bottom; just to reach the top, not even realizing, that if they do reach it,they will be on their way to the frying pan for whities dinner!

    anyway,, I sure you know the complexities of I&I struggle, I just cant accept seeing  whitie and lightie placed in the same boat. when in fact blackie and lightie is in the same boat ,true as it is ,that blackie is at the bottom of the boat, and many times lightie has try tip I&I over!
    This is exactly why blackie must rise up and take the forefront of I&I movement, and remind lightie of to whom he belongs.
     as for I, I glory in seeing the deeper depths and higher ites , of the dark black as mid-night mixed with mid-night, brothas and sistas in leadership positions of I&I movements toward freeman african civilization,as it brings great joy to I heart, and I am posed and ready to stand at I&I side in battle  against white supremacy, no matter how the I wish to express his truth, as I&I are centralized in the forward advancement of I&I race!
     In reality I&I should know that from time to time some brothas of extraordinary charactas will be chosen as leaders, by black people and some of them may be lightskinned!
     I would like to know how the I ranks H.I.M. HAILE SALASSIE I in ability to lead dark black africans? in your opinion is HE qualified as "real black" enough?

       From I&I stance he is the ultimate true leader of black people, and the world. and the perfect role model example. to all black people and leaders! second to none. If I didnt feel so; I would be a part of some other pan-african movement. for I only RasTafari fulfills every aspect of I livity. with  respect do to all pan-african movement.

      so as RasTafari ,I would like to say, that within I cultural perspective,spiritual,intelectual, and physical! all I&I leaders have already been elected,by I&I elders, and selected, by H.I.M. and shall not change until judgement has been completed! And it will please the concious to know that at least 98% of I&I leaders are of unmixed dark african stock, as it has always been from the inception, unbroken, unchanged, modern antiques.  In truth, to I knowledge the lightest SKIN leader with-in I culture that I am aware of is H.I.M. HIMSELF!
         FOWARD ALL AFRICAN ARMEGIDEON WARRIORS, CENTRALIZE INTO BLACK SUPREMACY ITES , AND CLAIM YOUR PASSAGE , CLAIM YOUR BIRTHRIGHT. FIYAH FI DE FALSE ROAD, ONE BLACK JAH FOR US ALL!      

Greetings,

Give thanks unto Ras Selassieilive and Muata for their clear and wise discernment and RASTA perspective.  InI appreciaLOVE the wordsound and OVERstanding of the Afrikan Reality/Experience, in all its variations and complexities.

United we stand.  Divided we fall.

ROOTS