Black and White thinking

[Kebo]

Greetings

This reasoning is in regards to the perception of a government's policies and actions, specifically inspired by the commentary I've read regarding the American government in this forum.

The American government portrays its policies and actions as justified to the american public and the world. Its propaganda supports its ideologies and paints itself in a justified light. There are those who dig through the propaganda to get the real story attempting to uncover the true motivations behind the government's policies and actions, then share their discoveries through commentary. According to most political commentary on the U.S. government that has appeared on this site, the U.S. government is up to some dirty deeds, dirty to the point of being inherently corrupt and criminal.

These reports and insights are not hard to believe. There appears to be much evidence to support the point of view that the current administration and the U.S. government as a whole is corrupt, dirty and criminal. Now I'm asking myself is that point of view too black? Is the U.S. government evil to the core? Just maybe there is some good intelligent reasoning behind moves the government has made and movements it has supported like globalization. Maybe not. Is it all black and white?

The acitivities of the globe are vast and complex. Is it possible that in some regards the U.S. government as a body is making some decisions that any intelligent body would make, mixed in with poor judgments and ill mindsets.

Only speaking for myself its wisest to maintain an open mind, to see as many angles as possible, and to never get boxed in to black and white thinking. Until a conclusion can be reached with certainty its best to keep an open mind or run the risk of alienating the greater population in reasonings on the subject.

Kebo

[Bantu_Kelani]

What is your purpose in using color symbolism here Kebo? Are you referring the way black activists give speeches about social imperfections in the US and the black plight? Are you assuming it simply reflects a bias on the part of Black people? How foolish is that. Exhaustive national and international survey will convincingly show you that there are a significant number of white Liberal Americans, Australians, Britain, Canadians, French, Russians and Asians of South Korea who have a great deal to oppose and fear the government of the United States. If Blacks activists are seen as anti-American, then we should wear such a title with honor. Certainly we will not sit idle while your war mongering government uplifts your Caucasian brethren. A lot of white conservatives, and white liberals in the same breath, would rather just forget about the fact that Black folks have been through hell and back in our very inimitable white experience anyway. Black people are in a lot of pain, and you would rather ignore our problems then face them, yet you promote an open mind...

However, if I misunderstood your premise, and if in fact you are using the black and white colors to describe two drastic opinions in the political viewpoint spectrum. Then again I would rather believe in black than white, black as a strict opposition to  America evil and imperialistic government. The US government executes and justifies the dehumanization, pillages, wholesale murders and industrial exploitation of Black Africans and people of color the world over. The blatant priorities of the Bush administration are driven strictly by business concerns. The Saudis are business partners of Bush and the Carlyle group. Bush told the FBI NOT to investigate them. They fund terrorists and yet Prince Beldar hangs at Bush's ranch. The Bush's, their business partners, ignores evidence of Saudis  funding terrorists. Right after 9/11, with no (and still NONE) proof of a link between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda, plans were being made to invade Iraq. Actually, they had these plans on paper before Bush was sworn in. Saddam being a scumbag and pursuing WMD's just gives Bush the excuse he needs to get the Oil..

The Bush cartel, or any US administration, cannot be trusted to look out for the best interests of Americans or the planet. In nearly every corner of the globe U.S. cultural, economic, political and military supremacy is loathed and feared. Racism and Imperialism is not a black or white affair, is to be crushed!


Bantu Kelani.

[Poetic_Princess]

Firstly why use the terms black and white thinking, are you trying to say only black persons be hard on the US goverments cause that surely isn't true many other races and even their very own fear the government as i pointed out and even if you mean that black persons are hard on the US than the rest we have all rights to be for what happened to us, we are the only ones who get pull over for "DRIVING WHILE BLACK", also as soon any federal law enforcer see a group of black men together they are labelled a gang or even any black man by himself he is labelled as a criminal even if he is just walking down the street. It just too bad that a country pledges to stand "one nation","indivisible", "with liberty", "justice for all" and lives on so much lies and greed.

Do Americans Fear Their Government?
by James Glaser
June 17, 2002

We have all seen the movies, where in the middle of the night the secret police come and take away the hero or there is a knock on the door and the police are asking "may we see your papers please." Not here, not in America have we ever had to worry about our government. Well if you didn't look as if you were from Japan or you are black or maybe a Indian. OK, OK white Americans have never had to fear their government.

Now however I am starting to hear little jokes about the FBI coming to get you or "either you are with us or against us." These jokes are the start of Americans coming to terms with the fact that our President can name any one of us "Enemy Combatants" even if we never had a gun nor fired a shot. Just the Presidents wish can put anyone of us away forever. No lawyer, no charges, no trial date, just limbo forever.

President Bush did swear to uphold the Constitution when he became President, but just maybe he had his fingers crossed. Presidents can't declare war, but George did. Presidents of these United States have never in the past threatened countries, calling them names, but George does. America has never been the country to start a sneak attack, but George Bush likes a "first strike policy." Some countries have always kept a neutral stance when it comes to foreign policy and they have always been non violent. George Bush has taken that option of non violence away from the world with his ultimatum, "Either you are with Us or you are with the Terrorists."

I can believe that there are countries that want to say "leave us out of this, those terrorists don't hate us" George will not allow that. Every country has to be dragged into this one. George has already said that this war will never end. Now he wants a world war that will never end. I think what he means is that this war on Terrorism will never end while he is President. Just maybe George has decided he will be President for life, but he hasn't told us yet.

In the United States of America, people have always known that those in Washington would have to justify any citizen being imprisoned in a court of law. Part of the "checks and balance" of our constitution. George Bush has decided that he doesn't need that court system nor do we as Americans need the protections that the Constitution affords us.

We now have three, born in America, citizens sitting in Federal Military Prisons on the say so of the justice department and George Bush. John Walker Lindh, the white one has lawyers and will get a trial. Jose Padilla and Yasser Esam Hamdi, the "Colored" two have nothing. No lawyer, no trial date, and no hope. No hope, and a terrorist is made.

People will say it is a real stretch to bring in the race card on this, but that is how it is going. John Walker Lindh has a family with the means to fight for his freedom. That means they have the money to buy a defense. The other two that happen to be nonwhite have no money and no family backing and so they are treated like so many nonwhite Americans that face the judicial system, no lawyer and most important, no one fighting for them. That isn't race, that is the way America is. It is just a fact Jack....... Our race card in America is green.


Well i hope u see from this excerpt that America has really never done anything good and just a government based on lies and if you don't see it from that excerpt il draw another situation to you take the 9/11 attacks the main accuser of that was Osama Bin Laden, some how Saddam has now become the new accused the Americans have no proof that any of these 2 men are to blame in 2001 America brought out a phony tape of Osama confessing he was behind the attacks, so if he confessed why isn't he captured i don't believe a man is that good dat he cant be found but old great US seems to think that way all is it all jus a hoax even George Bush says "I truly am not that concerned about him." Over 3000 people died on September 11, 2001, but Bush is unconcerned about the whereabouts of the man who supposedly masterminded the 9/11 attacks how can any "good president" be so  twisted.

[Kebo]

First the title I gave to this reason had nothing to do with race or skin color. I overlooked that somehow. This reasoning isn't about ignoring problems, the intent is to GET the mindset of the U.S. government. I think you have to understand the whole mindset before you can reason with it and change its patterns.

I don't how I overlooked the Black and White issues when I opened up this reasoning but I can see better how the black point of view is extreme against the U.S. government, seeing that Black and African interests have never had a REAL SAY in the government's policies and actions, but instead have been consistently brutalized and dehumanized. Its an ignorant government, but is it rotten to the core? Can it be reasoned with, if it can be then its important to understand its mindset, which in its own mind isn't totally evil.

Kebo

[Rootsie]

This is where history is so so important. I am 47 years old, so I have the advantage in my years of observing. About 25 years ago I began to reach some really horrifying conclusions which have only been strengthened and verified by the unfolding of events.

Yes, we are talking about a system rotten to the core, and not only from a black person's perspective, but from the point of view of anyone who cares for basic human decency. There may be individuals in the United States Government who are not directly guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors, but all are complicit, and by extension, so is the majority of citizens.

But the problem is bigger than the United States, a latecomer to the imperialist capitalist scene. First I went back to Columbus, and could trace the rot from there, but what of his financiers? The first European banking families came up in the 14th century, and it's pretty much been the same story since. The United States is the capitalist cops, the enforcer thugs. The American Revolution was fought largely for American control of the slave trade. Now we have global corporate colonization. The last 500 years have been a nightmare beyond imagining for most of the world.

And we Americans here in 2003 are still shaking our heads in our comfortable and relatively safe surroundings and can still ask, "Well they can't be THAT bad, can they?" They can be, and they are. Kebo, truly I understand where this question comes from. It is hard to believe we have been so brainwashed. It's hard to believe the extent of the corruption and yes the wickedness. When the structure itself is evil and rotten, it is not necessary for all the workers in it to be deliberately wicked. Most are ignorant. You have worked in schools and you know why this is so. But at this point, ignorance is simply not an acceptable excuse. We were born American. This is our lot. We have a tremendous responsibility once we allow ourselves to see the whole truth.

Where to begin in your research? You can start with the links on trinicenter.com and uscrusade.com. Or William Blum and Noam Chomsky and Eduardo Galeano and Howard Zinn are good. What happened with me is I read around here and there, and in time the full picture emerged. Look at Corporation Watch, or Democracy Now, or any indymedia site. The information, well-documented, is there and in a thousand other places. Look for where a lot of ex-Nazis ended up. Look at international weapons and drug traders. European banking, At this point I feel we can get as paranoid as we want and we won't be paranoid enough

[nyamabla]

raspek kebo

kebo i believe di i's dem answered your question very very good but i dont think dem answered at all. you said

"Now I'm asking myself is that point of view too black? Is the U.S. government evil to the core? Just maybe there is some good intelligent reasoning behind moves the government has made and movements it has supported like globalization. Maybe not. Is it all black and white?  "

when di i ah say black and white i ovastand dis to be a what side of the line of thought. the problem is in the question iya. it dont matter if you mean race or not kebo.
"First the title I gave to this reason had nothing to do with race or skin color. I overlooked that somehow. This reasoning isn't about ignoring problems, the intent is to GET the mindset of the U.S. government. I think you have to understand the whole mindset before you can reason with it and change its patterns.  

I don't how I overlooked the Black and White issues when I opened up this reasoning but I can see better how the black point of view is extreme against the U.S. government, seeing that Black and African interests have never had a REAL SAY in the government's policies and actions, but instead have been consistently brutalized and dehumanized. Its an ignorant government, but is it rotten to the core? Can it be reasoned with, if it can be then its important to understand its mindset, which in its own mind isn't totally evil.  "

although i dont really understand this atall. the problem is if you talk about black as the color then check the replies given already but if you mean black as a side of the political fence one must first start wit their own thinking before askin bout babylon cause it seems that you put the black on the negative side like black friday or black sunday or whateva that black is used to signify gloom seen. the physical torture black folks go thru is terrible, the drivin while black and all the other racism is terrible but the real problem is the fact that dem things deh take the front line and allow the fact that black people dont know about themself period. you can have an educated black man get up and sell the crowd wit a killer speech talking all about the physical torture and cop brutatlity and everything and though dem things are progress in di struggle iman ah look at it as if all them type things were wiped clean and black people wasnt tortured physically no more and housing laws were changed so equality in mortgage lending was up to par and salaries were equally distributed things would still be no good. black folks inna west knowing them africans and beginners of civilization now that is the biggest thing. if you broke but you know who you are i believe is better any day than advancing in society but not realizing that though you advance people suffer and you have no knowledge of it. so when you say "Just maybe there is some good intelligent reasoning behind moves the government has made and movements it has supported like globalization. Maybe not. Is it all black and white?  

The acitivities of the globe are vast and complex. Is it possible that in some regards the U.S. government as a body is making some decisions that any intelligent body would make, mixed in with poor judgments and ill mindsets. "

if just equalality is the goal yea i see how one could say that the intelligent body was making these judgements by doin a whole heap of killin and sayin god is blessin dem in doin so so ones could have better houses and cars and more money but thats not the case because there is not equality so blacks continue to suffer and at the same time no knowledge of i&i ancestors.

fiyah
blessed

[kristine]

"Only speaking for myself its wisest to maintain an open mind, to see as many angles as possible, and to never get boxed in to black and white thinking. Until a conclusion can be reached with certainty its best to keep an open mind or run the risk of alienating the greater population in reasonings on the subject."

Politics/politicians in the u s are right and left....this perpetuation of a polarizing, linear view is detrimental to essential ideology which considers and enacts standards of right and wrong..This type of government is not exclusive to the u s...

[Kebo]

The truth that the US is harming so many by its actions does prove that its an ill system. With this insight into the reality behind the propaganda one can reason with those who are gung ho pro-US government. However the reasoning won't go far if one comes into the reasoning with a straight negative view, even if there is so much negativity. One has got to have the ability to see the views of those who are pro-American government and even of those who are creating the policies, to understand their logic. Two coming together to reason, one with a positive outlook on the subject and the other with a negative outlook on the subject will clash, and won't promote deeper understanding and progress.

If the US government is such a damaging influence on the globe, it intrigues me to know the mindsets of those who are promoting its actions. I have the sense that it goes deeper than greed. Maybe fear of China, or fear of other governments, many which are not more just than the US. Is there a government today which is just? I have the feeling that the intelligence the White House has is deep making the thinking behind the government more complex than black and white (forgive the color symbolism).

Kebo
 

[Bantu_Kelani]

The truth that the US is harming so many by its actions does prove that its an ill system. With this insight into the reality behind the propaganda one can reason with those who are gung ho pro-US government. However the reasoning won't go far if one comes into the reasoning with a straight negative view, even if there is so much negativity.

What are you doing with this thread? Promoting the US/Bush government? You have done nothing to constructively disprove the obvious. You just post snap comments. Do you support America's transgression, all its lies, embellishments and erosion of principles of democracy, OR DO YOU NOT??

Two coming together to reason, one with a positive outlook on the subject and the other with a negative outlook on the subject will clash, and won't promote deeper understanding and progress.

It occurs to me that your escapist principles are an emotional release. To argue is the only way to grow!! I firmly believe that forwarding obvious truth of history and reality to individuals with different history and realities is the only way to promote equal rights and Justice. It is during intellectual challenges that the learning takes place when one assumes the purpose of truth seeking. I thought the purpose of building intellectual illumination was your intended desire?? Whatever though.

If the US government is such a damaging influence on the globe, it intrigues me to know the mindsets of those who are promoting its actions. I have the sense that it goes deeper than greed. Maybe fear of China, or fear of other governments,

Do you really believe such crap?? I am afraid it is true, the majority of Americans believe it too!! The US has more nuclear, chemical and biological weapons than other nations and has used them! THE US IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD. It fears no one its decide who to kill and when to kill it. Once we move past silly TRIFLING reasons, and get to the facts, the underbelly, there is a certain responsibility the US must take for its actions!

many which are not more just than the US. Is there a government today which is just?

Again most of the misery in the world is engineered by the US! Who is collaborating with those Arabs and European allies to aggress the Sudanese people on their land? Who is always sending mercenaries and all kinds insects to create and stir up turmoil all over the third world? The invasion of Grenada..The invasion of Panama....The invasion of Cuba (bay of Pigs)...The bombing of civilians in Iraq!!....The assassination of Patrice Lumumba (Congo)....The assassination of Maurice Bishop (Grenada)...The countless coups d'Etat all over the third world... Its systematic racism practiced daily against Black people! I ask you who always go around bombing people?? Name another country that gives as much terrorism, bullying and imperialism to other countries in the world. Name one!!

You keep showing your bias. You are yet to be cured of the affliction of selfishness and power that plague your people. PEACE.


Bantu Kelani.

[gman]

Kebo, the truth is the truth. And the truth is that there is absolutely no redeeming value, no "good side" to the people who run the U.S.A. They are a set of greedy, vicious, venal m.f'ers, and it really is just as simple as that. (The good news is, most of them seem to be pretty damn stupid as well). Now admittedly if you're trying to reason with someone of the opposite view you won't get far by just repeating what I just said. However if you run down the indisputable FACTS which PROVE what I just said, and show people the sources for those facts so they can check for themselves, then the person can choose either to accept these facts as facts and change his or her opinion, or (as is more likely) revert to heated denials, refusing to check out the information you're giving, basically burying their head in the sand to preserve their comfortable worldview. But no purpose is served by artificially trying to see the other person's side when you KNOW it's WRONG. Not everything is relative, some things are right and wrong, and the heads of the U.S. Empire are 110% wrong.
This is not to say that most other governments are any better, however I live in the U.S. right now (for about another week anyway), and the U.S. is at the moment the most powerful and influential single nation on the globe. So naturally lots of fire needs to be concentrated on them.
If we were in Nazi Germany would you recommend the same attitude when debating with a Hitler Youth? " Meet them halfway" by acknowledging Hitler's great record on job creation and train promptness, sympathize with Hitler's human side, the poor underappreciated artist, I'm sure he had a terrible childhood and was really a nice guy deep down inside, right?
If Black people play that game we will end up like the German Jews who followed their leaders telling them to be passive, not to resist cos that would just make the Nazis hate the Jews more, to walk obediently into the concentration camps.
I've heard this idea that there are really no "sides", that "there is no room [in social justice work] for thinking in terms of enemies", etc. That's all nonsense to me. There plainly and obviously are ENEMIES of our people (African, people of color, poor people) and they need to be confronted and neutralized or eliminated if we wish to advance.
In Michael Moore's new book "Dude, where's my country?" [to which I reply, "exactly where and how it has been ever since its bloody genocidal inception"], he has a chapter on "how to talk to your conservative brother-in-law" which advises people to find common ground by "admitting the left has made mistakes." What's the first 'mistake of the left' he cites? "The left" 's support for Mumia Abu-Jamal (see www.mumia.org) who he claims without a shred of backup "probably killed that guy" (i.e. police officer Daniel Faulkner). In other words, suck up to your conservative brother-in-law by distancing yourself as far as possible from anyone who is a straight-up unrepentant REVOLUTIONARY and Black to boot. In other words, Michael Moore feels it more important to get conservative white people as allies than to reach out to poor Black people who are victims of police brutality.
When I confronted Michael Moore about this statement when he spoke at Ohio State's campus last year (to a worshipful audience of blonde dreadlocks, etc., busy getting out the vote for Howard Dean and so on), I hadn't actually read his book, only seen the quote, and he proceeded to make me seem foolish for taking a remark out of context without having read the book. He told me that if I read it I'd see it was intended as 'sarcasm'. Well I read it and no, it is not intended as sarcasm. Therefore: Michael Moore is an opportunistic, weaselly, lying sack of s*it, just as much as the guy he tries in vain to interview in 'Roger and Me'.
If most of the white 'left' (I say most cos there's exceptions) is willing to sell out Black people at the drop of the hat to be more acceptable to their conservative brothers-in-law, they are not to be considered friends. How much less so the white right who run this b*tch?
Sometimes the truth really is black and white and you have to choose your side.