Jesus married

[Bantu_Kelani]

I do not know how many times I have stated it is not CHRISTIANITY but CHRISTENDOM, the world wide mockery of the principles set forth by Christ but never attained to.

You state that you abhor Judiasm then a few lines later say you engage in the Kaballah, the words, wisdom and practices of Jewish mystics.  Which is it?

It just seems with a degree of strinking overtness that you lack the principles that many in religions worldwide make a concerted effort to inculcate, which is the spurring point that drives you to make such heated retorts when you're challenged theologically.  That is to say, you don't seem to be at peace with yourself and your place in this world - at all.

I can certainly accept the ancient Kaballah as a seldom- unspoiled teachings coming from our highly civilized Black ancestors of the Motherland. The mundane thinking Hebrew of old and the Jew of today lack realization of the profundity of the knowledge of the Kaballah! I have never come across any stories and legends such as those in the Torah, Bible or Qu-ran with so many extravagances, additions, omissions and misconceptions engrafted into them. Therefore the spiritual mystery (if any) of the Old and New Testament remain unsolved without the Khaballah. The Jew and the Gentile alike lack insight to know this one truth.

And in response to you who say that the "Christianity is not Christendom" - I say this: Christiandom includes the Protestant denominations, the Orthodox and Roman Catholics as well even fringe groups like the KKK and Aryan nations. Christiandom is the Christians of today. You are all advocates of Christiandom faith!! It is cowardly to attempt to distance yourself from what is painfully obvious then make the absurd claim that it is CHRISTENDOM that executed Black people denigration, rape and murder. In fact, it is downright insulting to the darker skinned people that we are to continually exclude the past and present. You have no conscience about the practice of injustice, how can you claim to represent the teaching of Yeshua?  You are missing the point deliberately, trying to cover it up with silly (if openly bigoted) insinuations.

Now, lets talk a bit about my mentality...I'm only on spiritual high!! For I'm not a mentally enslaved person, I expelled this plague long ago. I do not hate myself or anyone either. I love the SUN, the moon, my planet, the stars, humanity, my heritage, history, color and gender. The bottom-line is I always venerate the Divinity within me and about me. Those who uphold unprejudiced philosophies I esteem!! For, we must work together in light and freedom to copy the force and intellectual power of the Great Creator.

But you on this other hand are challenging me neither spiritually nor intellectually. I have debated numerous times with delusional and or ignorant people and facts remains. Your (religious) position preserves the status quo of white privilege and black disadvantage, for you do not want Africans to achieve without white authority in order to be play a major part in the civilization of the world to come. Duck and dive if you please, the facts remains.

Bantu Kelani.

[out_of_Zion]

"And in response to you who say that the "Christianity is not Christendom" - I say this: Christiandom includes the Protestant denominations, the Orthodox and Roman Catholics as well even fringe groups like the KKK and Aryan nations."

In light of the fact that I am not Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, KKK, or Aryan nation, the statement still doesn't apply.

"You are all advocates of Christiandom faith!!"

Quite on the contrary Christendom hates my faith and persecutes the members of it.  My faith does not adhere to the trinity ("Breaking a part of himself off to save mankind" as rootsie said), an eternal place of torment, or immortal souls. We do not worship Jesus as God, but rather realize he is the Son of God, an entirely separate person.  We do not advocate Christendom's position that "faith alone justifies salvation" nor their organization of having a paid clergy class.  There is scarcely a good thing I can say about Christendom in it's entirety save for except maybe that there are some sincere individuals that are simply misled by the antichrist clergy that they think are sheparding them.

"You have no conscience about the practice of injustice, how can you claim to represent the teaching of Yeshua?"

I really don't know what you are trying to accomplish by saying this.  I treat everyone as my brother and sister.  The bigotry you speak of is clearly a result of your perception and deliberate alienation of people of "European descent."  Any racial issues that lie between you and I individually belong to you because I certainly have no problem getting along with blacks...except racist ones like yourself.

"Your (religious) position preserves the status quo of white privilege and black disadvantage, for you do not want Africans to achieve without white authority in order to be play a major part in the civilization of the world to come."

I cannot help what is reality, that Britain & the US have become the ruling powers that are.  I'm not a government official or politician, so I am just as voiceless as you on the matters we seek to see changed.

But what I can say is that you are so incredibly ignorant of my faith and spirituality that it's not even funny.  The circuit overseer of our circuit that just visited (circuit overseer is one of the "highest" positions; that is, they keep watch over a great number of congregations to ensure that the preaching work runs smoothly) is a black man and there are many blacks in positions of authority within my faith.  I stated earlier that it is a color blind organization and so have others that are "minorities" in this country made the remark.  But you wouldn't know that because you've clumped us in with Babylon and not investigated the matter at all.

Really - it doesn't matter what kind of witness I provide you, b/c you're looking for a reason to discredit it and claim it is racist, prejudice, or some other form of oppressive thought before you even consider MY religious background.  

You've already said as much, that your purpose is to expose Christian thought as foolishness.  So be it.  When the great day of Jehovah comes and you have willingly alligned yourself  against his people  (a multitude of races - including your own) it won't be because you didn't choose that position through your inability to get over your bigotry and inability to adhere to the righteous laws of Jehovah God.

Like I said, Christendom hates my faith, has killed members of our faith, and we're as victimized by their political and financial dominance as anyone else.  Yeshua was hated and he said as much would be expected of his true apostles,

"If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own.  Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you.  Bear in mind the word I said to you, A slave is not greater than his master.  If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also; if they have observed my word, they will observe yours also." --John 15:19,20

You've chosen not to observe.

[iyah360]

out_of_zion

why have you chosen to visit this board? i am just curious.

[Tracey]

yes...I have also wondered this...what is your purpose coming to an "African Speaks" board o_o_z?...since clearly you seem to have no visible interests in the rootical heart/nature/culture/spirituality of Africa ...

[iyah360]

out_of_zion stated:

"The truth of the matter is she's not even properly representing her own religion by saying things like  

"If you are of European descent I could care less of your poorer theological and cultural beliefs...."

The comment in full was this: "If you are of European descent I could care less of your poorer theological and cultural beliefs....Let the GOOD and learned of our people to educate our own people!"  

As Rastafari is rooted in Africa, and African liberation, it is up to Africans to define for themselves what Rastafari is about . . .  this is a FUNDAMENTAL of self-determination. For you to come and say she misrepresents Rastafari is a case and point of you UNCONSCIOUSLY claiming a superior role of dictating to an AFRICAN what the AFRICAN'S "religion" is all about. This is what I have alluded to before(which you did not OVERstand) about you UNCONSCIOUSLY playing the Roman/Babylon superiority game although you claim otherwise.

http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/?board=rb;action=display;num=1071242246;start=16#16
"It would be good for the I to OVERSTAND that even though you think that you espouse a rather universal doctrine of redemption, the doctrine you espouse has been colored by the conquesting fantasies of the originators of the Roman church who used the religion as a tool of unifying peoples into a vast empire. Christ principles from other cultures do not hold this same type of spin to them. You could very well be unconsciously propogating that which you SEEMINGLY lash out against the most(Babylonian/Roman imperialism)."

Your UNCONSCIOUS superiority complex is the legacy of the Christian religion and YOU TOO HAVE SHOWN WITHOUT A DOUBT through your reasoning that you possess this same MINDSET.

I applaud your efforts to try to be a bit more broad-minded in your definition of who are going to be "saved" when the redemption comes(righteous people of all faiths who hold fast to the Christ principle). Other than that though, there is much for you to learn if you wish to. If not, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

"We know that unity can be and has been attained among men of the most disparate origins, that difference of race, of religion, of culture, of tradition, are no insurmountable obstacles to the coming together of peoples."  -Haile Selassie"

[Bantu_Kelani]

Conscious brethren (Iyah360, Tracey) spend some time discussing racial politics with the majority of whites and see them stew in their own rank hypocrisy every time. It's just a cheap source of entertainment for me now.

They don't want to learn. No, they don't want to hear anything that doesn't conform to their reality. So when you hit them with facts, they ignore them. When you use logic, they answer with illogical assertions....However, I feel this communication has been highly beneficial to the member out_of_zion, he has learned a lot.  

B.K

[out_of_Zion]

Actually Tracey - that is why I came to this board.  I had read bits of the history of the Rastafari movement but figured the best way to actually learn of the movement and gain a comprehension of just what its followers believe would be to read FIRSTHAND from believers themselves.  And yes, as BK said, I have learned a lot...Most of what I have learned, I have yet to learn (if that makes any sense) b/c I still have to print and read a bunch of info that Iyah linked me to.  It may take a while for me to sort through all of it Iyah b/c I have a heavy courseload this term...but I will get to it - eventually.

This thread is a poor representation of my presence & purpose on this board because it turned confrontational.  I responded in strong disagreement to the topic of Jesus having a wife because it is an utter load of unscholarly nonsense brought on by occultists such as the Mormon faith (founded by Joseph Smith who was a freemason) and Gnostics gospels to further their agenda of making Yeshua appear as though he was fleshly corrupt.  If that was the case, it would invalidate the ransom sacrifice because it required that he prove faithful in each and every regard.

I don't really understand what is expected from me in the area of "racial politics."  I'm a 22 year old white man who's got along with blacks, whites, latinos, asians, whatever, and has never thought much more of the matter.  As I wrote in a previous post, I think too much is made of the race issue.  If you want racism to disappear the best way is to stop pressing the issue and allow the process of time to allieviate matters.  What more do you expect really?  Of course I do not know every bit of African history; neither do most Africans.  Most whites don't know European history, nor American history.  People are so overly concerned with materialism and are so solical that they seldom look past the drudgery of their daily lives.  

I came to this website to be around people who do.  I go to the Kingdom hall to be around people who do - though of the same faith as I.  This world is nearly soulless and people live with low morals or no morals at all.  

HOWEVER, I can't say that I've gained a lot from our exchange, BK.  You continue to fireback on how you are disgusted by my beliefs (despite not really knowing much about them) and don't really expound much at all about your theology or philosophy, merely telling me that is composed of a buffet of practices, kind of a pick and choose what looks appealing casserole of religion...Such an attitude towards spirituality is increasingly common in this communication age, where people from all over the world interact with one another on a level far greater than in times past, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is any more beneficial than the restricted spirituality of any one given religion.  Do you not agree with that statement?

It seems as though you're almost afraid to make a stand for any one set of beliefs, so you just adopt a slew of them and make no stand at all (except on the racial front of course).

[iyah360]

out_of_zion,

please read: http://www.rastaspeaks.com/Rasta/whitesonracism.html

just as you have accused BK of not fully understanding your belief system before attacking them, you too are guilty of this same thing when you say:

"It seems as though you're almost afraid to make a stand for any one set of beliefs, so you just adopt a slew of them and make no stand at all (except on the racial front of course)."

to this I would have you check this quote:

". . . In the mystic traditions of the different religions we have a remarkable unity of spirit. Whatever religion they may profess, they are spiritual kinsmen. While the different religions in their historic forms bind us to limited groups and militate against the development of loyalty to the world community, the mystics have already stood for the fellowship of humanity...in harmony with the spirit of the mystics of ages gone by. . . " - Haile Selassie

Furthermore, BK elaborated that "Small pieces of Universal Wisdom are to be found in legends throughout the world: Nubia-Khemet esotericism, Mexican Quexalcoatl, the Kaballah, old Greek philosophy, Hinduism-Yoga and Taoism-Buddhism etc."

Africa stands at THE ROOT and FOUNDATION of this "Universal Wisdom" . . . check the links i have given to you as a start. "Mexican Quexalcoatl, the Kaballah, old Greek philosophy, Hinduism-Yoga and Taoism-Buddhism" all have their origins in Africa, although brought into different cultural contexts, the basis for these things can be found in Africa. The same is true for Judaism and Christianity. There is indeed a "natural mystic" which is like a hidden thread.  BEHIND what may appear to you as a "hodgepodge of diverging faiths" is actually a unity which you cannot see because you are ignorant to the origins which bind them.

Ethiopia is the cradle of mankind. Rastafari is the tapline to the root.

Also, PLEASE do not make the assumption that since one sees the unity in the manifestations, that one is CONDONING the various manifestations or the ways that they have been abused throughout history.

[out_of_Zion]

How does Babylon fit into the schematics with regard to Ethopia?  My understanding was always that it was the Babylonians and Sumerians that were responsible for the vast majority of the world religions, from those typically thought of as Western (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) to the fundamentals of Eastern thought and martial arts.

Did a undercurrent of Ethopian mythology/theology/spirituality migrate northward to Babylon or did the Babylonian influences seep southward?  How would you be able to accurately distinguish which pattern occured?  

[Rootsie]

Well the Sumerian and Egyptian 'high civilizations' are dated nearly identical, but it is becoming clear to scholars unblinded by the racism of the last 300 years that Egypt is far older.  Europeans assumed the Sumerians came first because they were inventing racism at the time and could not give credence to the idea that Africa is the source. It is obvious that the sources of the Egyptian civilization come from the interior of Africa. The Kush/Ethiopian empire comes much later.

[gman]

Out-of-Zion
   Statements like 'I can't help what whites did in the past' and 'just wait for racism to wither away' and 'I get along well with Blacks, just not racist ones' (I'm paraphrasing)demonstrate total willful ignorance of what is going on in the world today.
  THE PAST??? WHAT ABOUT RIGHT NOW??
   JUST WAIT FOR RACISM TO GO AWAY? WHEN IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN, WHEN "JESUS" COMES FROM THE CLOUDS IN A CHARIOT OR SOME SUCH NONSENSE???
   ARE "RACIST BLACKS" DENYING YOU EMPLOYMENT, FOOD, CLOTHING AND HEALTHCARE, LOCKING YOU UP, SHOOTING YOU IN THE BACK AND GETTING AWAY WITH IT??? IF NOT, HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY CALLING THEIR *JUSTIFIED SUSPICION* OF WHITE PEOPLES' MOTIVES BY THE SAME WORD USED TO DESCRIBE THE ABOVE ACTS COMMITTED ON BLACK PEOPLE ("RACISM"?)
  Sorry to shout as it were, but come on man. What world are you living in?
   Anyway you're free to wait for your savior to come from the sky and solve everything, you will be waiting forever and the more you (or anyone) passively wait, and the less action you take, the WORSE things will become over time, not better.
   The Battle of Armageddon is right here, right now.
    The type of 'Christian' I respect is people like dem man in Central America who read the Bible and saw that Jah or Jesus or whoever was telling them to go up in the hills with guns and fight for the liberation of their people from the everyday terrorist atrocities committed by their U.S.-backed government.
   Or like a MLK kind of Christian, I'm not saying you have to use physical weapons, but unless you're actively engaged in resisiting against this system, or at least preparing yourself to do so, then you implicitly support the system.
   If your Jesus is gonna be coming from the sky anyway, don't you think he'd be more pleased to find you engaged in trying to right some of the wrongs here on earth, than just passively waiting for him to come and solve everything?
  Anyway keep on waiting for Big Daddy to save you if that's your bag.
  Lastly, if B.K. is such a virulent "racist" don't you think she'd have banned you and other all-but-clueless white people from this site already?
  I have no animosity towards you as I don't know you. But many of your statements in trying to be 'profound' are just plain silly to me, and reveal that you have not even attempted to analyze your own self and see how it may have been shaped at least partially by the 'babylonian pustule' you claim to detest so much.

   

[gman]

Oh one more thing Out_of_Zion:
   I have no idea whether or not "Jesus" married, had sex or whatever. But if he did, why on earth would this mean he was "less pure"? What is "impure" about sex and marriage?
   The idea that sex is "bad" and that we are "born in sin" is one of the most pernicious and destructive notions in the world, it is the root cause of things like all them child-molesting priests.

[out_of_Zion]

"Or like a MLK kind of Christian, I'm not saying you have to use physical weapons, but unless you're actively engaged in resisiting against this system, or at least preparing yourself to do so, then you implicitly support the system.
   If your Jesus is gonna be coming from the sky anyway, don't you think he'd be more pleased to find you engaged in trying to right some of the wrongs here on earth, than just passively waiting for him to come and solve everything?"

I don't expect Jesus to be "coming from the sky."  That's symbolism, evidenced by the fact he said he would be "seen no more" to his disciples.  His "coming," is referred to in the Greek by the word parousia, that he'd be making an inspection in the Lord's day which we believe began in 1914 based on the prophecy in Daniel of Nebuchadezar's dream of the tree 7x over...7 * 360 days in prophetic year + 607 BCE destruction of Jerusalem + no zero year (+1) = 1914.  The ultimate redemption we await is the "Great day of Jehovah," when he will destroy the wicked using numerous weapons, including them destroying themselves (as it is already occuring on some level).
----
Sex outside marriage was punishable by STONING TO DEATH under Jewish law; Jesus was a Jew.  They're not my laws and principles - they are those of Jehovah God.  Certainly sex in and of itself is not dirty, he told Adam and Eva to "go forth and be fruitful," which involves more than a little sex    HAR HAR.  
---
Stepping away from the religion and touching back on the topic of the racism:

I see it.
I know of it.
I don't agree with it.
I really don't know what more you expect from the people of my generation that are a part of the overturn and improvement that IS happening - just not fast enough.  And I do think that, at least in this country, things are far better when we have a Democrat in office.  Bush is a racist bigot and I wouldn't mind seeing him assassinated.  But that's an entirely different topic.  He's out fighting the war for the average idiot right now so he can have a legacy throughout Texas and amongst the narrow minded Christian fundamentalist hatred-filled bigots all through the south --- which, by the way, are around where I live.

They not only are racist, but as I mention they hate Jehovah's Witnesses, too.  So I experience prejudice.  It's just prejudice against religion instead of race.  NOW NOTE, I am not saying it is equivalent to what many blacks incur in terms of social injustice, but I can empathsize, at least on some levels.

[Tyehimba]

gman:

have no idea whether or not "Jesus" married, had sex or whatever. But if he did, why on earth would this mean he was "less pure"? What is "impure" about sex and marriage?
   The idea that sex is "bad" and that we are "born in sin" is one of the most pernicious and destructive notions in the world, it is the root cause of things like all them child-molesting priests.

The notion that sex outside of legal institution of marriage is impure and that sex inside marriage is pure, borders on being ludicrous. In my opinion, the legal institution of marriage can never consecrate any relationship or interaction that may exist.Ignorance about the nature of human sexuality will continue to exist once individuals continue leave their education in the hands of the fools.

[Bantu_Kelani]

Could you be more confused? Your posts are a bit untaught, don't you think?

I stated earlier that it is a color blind organization

I embrace the spirit of Jesus and am not concerned with whether he was black, arab (which I think he was), or white.

*The Yeshua that is part of my faith is a Nazarene, which makes him of Arabic descent -

*By all my estimations he was a speaker of the Aramaic/Hebrew language which causes me to visualize him as a middle eastern man.

& as I stated earlier the organization INI belong to is in every country and forms a unified worldwide brotherhood, something no man-made GOVERNMENT has or ever will attain to.

*My religion is devoid of racist motives and agenda and is completely severed from the Imperialism of Christedom & Islam (Babylon the Great) that Jehovah God condemns.  

but she continues to belittle Christianity as a "white man's religion" when in fact Christendom extends over 1/3rd of the world's pop..

*The WORST of this is the Mormon church who not only portrays Jesus as white, but the invisible spirit God Yahweh or Jehovah is portrayed as white by them, too, even called "the great white god."

The people I associate with are not racist; I am not racist.  The fact that whites in the past did things to the African race that are destible is beyond my control.  Too much is made of the issue of race.  People are people.

*Also, have you read the Autobiography of Malcolm X?  I just bought a copy a few weeks ago and am really looking forward to reading it.  I didn't know he had written an autobio.

Bush is a racist bigot and I wouldn't mind seeing him assassinated.  But that's an entirely different topic.  

*In the same sense, I am a minister..

I also find it interesting that you are able to equalize the horrendous behavior of white institutions and white individuals with incidences of Christians' reactionary prejudice. Do you think it's "ok" to have an excuse to be delusionist confined in your religion?  

Bantu Kelani.