Abortion And Us

[Poetic_Princess]

I pose this question to every one on this board both male and female, I honestly want to hear ya'all views and also
share mine as well.Should Abortions be Legalise or Not Base on what the soceity thinks??
In my opinon it is hard to decide whether it should be legal r not basis on soceity heavy take on it also taking into consideration of the women who have to make this desicion on day to day base since it has so many different reasons along with it.
The value of an unborn child to me is the same value of a newborn child
but to many they see the "fetus" as just a "fetus" and not as a child,in my eyes once anything is living and breathing it shouldn't
be taking off this earth.Abortions have cause many women to suffer from psychological problems which poses another question Why do some women go through it no matter the circumstances?I understand a mother can have miscarriages and the child gets abort naturally or due to the child not developing properly,or illness to the mother, Also I do understand that some women who choose to abort there child due to incest or rape. But the fact of a woman who is perfectly healthy and everything is going a ok in her pregnancy walking up to a doctor's office to get her child abort because of other reasons such as "She doesn't want anyone to know she is pregnant",''Her husband or partner wants the child aborted","She wants to avoid raising the child on her own"or "She is a teenager or an unmarried woman fearing rejection by their families and society" That I cant find much compassion with and can't really understand throughly and just the thought of it brings me to tears of sadness .But that just shows how Soceity has a major impact on women when they have to make such a life challenging decision cause they wonder what people think and how they would view them when they have done it.


Information on Abortion,It's High Rise in Kenya and Insight AboutThe Back Alley Clinics
Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy before birth, resulting in the death of the foetus. Some abortions occur naturally because a foetus does not develop normally, or because the mother has an injury or disorder that prevents her from carrying the pregnancy to full-term.
This type of spontaneous abortion is commonly known as a miscarriage. Other abortions are induced - because a pregnancy is unwanted for several reasons.The latter is the most common in Kenya.
A study released early this month indicates that 20,000 women are admitted to public hospitals with abortion-related complications annually. However, an estimated at 300,000 abortions are carried out every year.
Surgical and chemical methods can be used to induce abortions. The method chosen depends on the stage of the pregnancy and the cost.
To end a pregnancy before it reaches eight weeks, a doctor typically performs a pre-emptive abortion or an early uterine evacuation. In both procedures, a narrow tube, called a cannula, is inserted through the cervix (the opening to the uterus) into the uterus.
The cannula is attached to a suction device, such as a syringe, and the contents of the uterus, including the foetus, are sucked out. Both types of abortions typically require no anaesthesia and can be performed in a clinic or doctor's office. The entire procedure lasts for only several minutes.
These are the tools used in professional clinics but in Kenya, many back-street clinics use crude and bizarre tools to procure the abortions.
The most often cited are knitting needles and crochets. Other crude tools that have been found to be commonly used are catheters and even coat hangers have been mentioned.
Vacuum aspiration is a procedure used for abortions in the 6th to 14th weeks of pregnancy. It requires that the cervix be dilated, or enlarged, so that a cannula can be inserted into the uterus..
During the procedure, the cannula is attached to an electrically powered pump that removes the contents of the uterus. In some cases, the lining of the uterus must also be scraped with a spoon-like tool called a curette to loosen and remove tissue..
Dilation and curettage (D&C), performed during the 6th to 16th week of pregnancy, involves dilating the cervix and then scraping the uterine lining with a curette to remove the contents.
A D&C often requires general anesthesia and must be performed in a clinic or hospital. Possible complications include a reaction to the anesthesia and cervical injuries..
After the first 16 weeks of pregnancy, abortion becomes more difficult. One method that can be used during this period is dilation and evacuation (D&E), which requires greater dilation of the cervix than other methods. It also requires the use of suction, a large curette, and a grasping tool called forceps to remove the foetus.
D&E is a complicated procedure because of the larger size of the foetus and the thinner walls of the uterus, which stretch to accommodate a growing foetus. Bleeding in the uterus often occurs.
An induced abortion can also be performed between the 16th and 24th weeks of pregnancy. In this type of abortion, a small amount of amniotic fluid, the fluid that surrounds the foetus, is withdrawn and replaced with another fluid.
About 24 to 48 hours later, the uterus begins to contract and the foetus is expelled. When this method was first developed, physicians used a strong saline (salt) solution to abort the foetus; today they may also use solutions containing a synthetic form of a chemical produced by the pituitary gland that induces labour. Heavy bleeding, infection, and injuries to the cervix can occur.
This procedure is performed in the hospital and requires a stay of one or more days. It is the preferred method for women who can afford it. with enough money.
Abortions performed later than this require major surgery. Two such late-term procedures include hysterotomy (surgical incision of the uterus) and intact dilation and extraction. In hysterotomy, the uterus is cut open and the foetus is removed surgically in an operation similar to a cesarean section, but a hysterotomy requires a smaller incision. This is a major abdominal surgery performed under general anesthesia.
Intact dilation and extraction, also referred to as a partial birth abortion, consists of partially removing the foetus from the uterus through the vaginal canal, feet first, and using suction to remove the brain and spinal fluid from the skull.
The skull is then collapsed to allow complete removal of the foetus from the uterus. In preemptive abortions, the most common complication is infection. Women who undergo early uterine evacuation may experience heavy bleeding for the first few days after the procedure.
The infection acquired during abortion, especially in facilities that use dirty and sometimes rusty and unsterilized tools, may have dire consequences.
It is estimated that 10 per cent of all women who procure an abortion get infected and the majority of these irreversibly lose their ability to have a baby as a result of complications resulting from the infections.
Induced abortions are also performed using drugs, such as chloroquine, in the form of malariaquin tablets.
It is said that girls have used cupfuls of very strong black tea in a bid to induce an abortion, but the effectiveness of such methods is unsubstantiated.
Besides direct impacts on health, women who have undergone an abortion suffer from depression and other psychological problems.
Reasons Why Women Have Abortions
Woman is concerned about how having a baby could change her life - 16%
Woman can not presently afford a baby - 21%
Woman has problems with relationship or does not want single parenthood - 12%
Woman is unready for responsibility - 21%
Woman does not want others to know she has had sex or is expecting - 1%
Woman is not mature enough, or is too young to have a child, she thinks - 11%
Woman has all the children she wants or they are all adults - 8%
Husband or partner wants the woman to have an abortion - 1%
The unborn has health problems - 3%
The woman has health problems - 3%
Woman was a victim of rape or incest - 1%
Other - 3% (Totals do not add up to 100% because of the rounding of numbers).
- Notice that about 93% of the reasons for the elected abortion can be simply classified as "social problems" experienced on the part of the woman -

I Think this is a world wide issue and should be taking very serious cause if these rates continues to go up and the other population is dying from AIDS, what would be left to carry on, who would be left??

[out_of_Zion]

Oh my sister you ask a sticky one!

And how I dodge this question!    At least I am being honest?

People say "Abortion is murder."  True Statement.
People say "A woman should have the right to do what she wants with her body."  True Statement.

Conflict?  Yes.

How do I resolve it?  I can't.  On ethical grounds, I am opposed to abortion, "a soul for a soul" says Dueteronomy.  Yet, it can kill the mother if her hips aren't able to bear a child.  What about that circumstance?  I would say abort.  Then am I promoting murder?  Well, it would kill the mother!  See...

This issue has no clear cut answer to me and it's the kind of thing I take my personal responsibilities for.  What I mean by that is: I don't impregnate anyone, and if I do, I want to raise the child.  I won't however, because I am celebate (now) and I intend  to remain that way until I am married...But I don't try to tell others how to live their lives.  Do I suggest sometimes?  Not really...I show them what Jah Jah say and it's their own choice whether to acknowledge his sovreignty or not.  Most don't.  Y así lo es...so it goes, sister.  

I'm interested to hear others reason on the matter, though, 'cause like I say, the subject is sticky and thick.

[preach]

Reasoning. Abortion is literally a legal murder, like capital punishment but otherwise murder is illegal. But legalization doesn't necessarily deem something morally just. For instance, segregation was legal but it wasn't morally right and it presented no other options. If abortion is considered legal than it becomes more of a moral issue. If abortion is banned than the government is to blame for making a moral decision for us when they in fact have a long history of being immoral. Knowing this i say that abortion should be legal in order to present an option that will leave room for a better thought out finalized decision. Then perhaps people will consider other alternatives rather than abortion.  

[Nazarite]

i think of Abortion as DEEPER than just "murder" without explanation,but when one goes through with this judgment,one is stopping the child from going through their life experiences that is needed to become a Perfect being of the All.that child could of been a Great Scientist or even a follower of Truth,that might influence the inhabitants of this earth on a Worldy scale.it is a GRAVE DANGER to have a child in this time without having the Strength to take care of it.not to stray from the subject,but in the Incient days,it wouldnt be a Taboo for a 16 or 17 yr old to have a baby,because,to me,the earth was (Especially InI mother land)SPIRITUALLY and MORALLY Enlightened,SO THE ENVIRONMENT WAS GREAT (at least betta than now)but NOW,the family ties in SOME black families is gone,thus no balance,the baby father or mother act like its the unborn baby is a GERM instead of a gift from the HIGH order,and u know....u get my drift.Namaste

[Oshun_Auset]

I think that once again, this is a symptom of an  out of balance society. Societal and economic pressure are the main reason women get abortions, not their pending health or circumstances of incest/rape. It isn't that the women don't want to have kids. It is that this capitalist society makes it such a burden to do what NATURE intended. IMHO the combination of African(and other) peoples familial social structure being ripped apart by the poverty and oppression created and fostered by capitalism and slavery/colonialsim, and the oppression of women and the devine femanine in the dominant western spiritual/economic/cultural/social structure creates the Abortion phenomenon(and other social ills and mass behavioral patterns). For me it isn't a matter of whether it should be legalized or made illegal by elitist capitalist governments(the very people enforcisng the out of balance culture)...but is more of a question of whether the social conditions that cause abortion to be the "Best Option" for so many women will be toppled by an organized people. The root causes of our destructive social phenomenon needs to be dealt with by an organized people, otherwise we would just be putting a band-aid on an open, festuring wound. The system has to go to see REAL change.

[iyah360]

Thanks Oshun_Auset for that response - that is how I feel as well.

On another level of this discussion, it is important to overstand the nature of the politrickal games. Emotionally charged issues like this are cannon fodder for any group who wishes to harness the energy of such. A group can hide behind the guise of pro-choice to institute plans of population reduction. A group can hide behind anti-abortion as a moral sheath for which they hide their sword of anti-life activities such as warmongering.

"Well in the name of the new born baby
They purpose to do their violent deeds
When them in the slaughter ya of the infants
The infantry is what them call their kill man machinery."

- Midnite, "Love Right(Live Right)"

It is time to see past the polarity of issues like this . . . it is how they control the frame of discourse.

[Poetic_Princess]

I thank all of you for sharing ya'll views and I do know it was a sticky issue to tackle but it is one that is happening at alarming rates I just decided to bring it up after hearing the news of a Doctor in Kenya who was conducting abortions and throwing the "fetus" or unbornchild into a river close by.Which total and nearly brought me to tears but over cast me with sadness on how somone could do such a thing but as Iyah360 said "It is time to see past the polarity of issues like this . . . it is how they control the frame of discourse."
But i comend you all for posting Much Blessings.

[Oshun_Auset]

I thank all of you for sharing ya'll views and I do know it was a sticky issue to tackle but it is one that is happening at alarming rates I just decided to bring it up after hearing the news of a Doctor in Kenya who was conducting abortions and throwing the "fetus" or unbornchild into a river close by.Which total and nearly brought me to tears but over cast me with sadness on how somone could do such a thing...

Thanks for bringing the subject up, it is something that needs discussion...Here is why I think someone would do such a thing. Kenya/Nairobi has the biggest slum in Africa(Kibera) The second and third articles will give plenty of reasons why a woman would choose an abortion...I know I can't say what I would do if I had to survive this life...

http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/?board=International;action=display;num=1083943059

[erzulie]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mitchell/cst-nws-mitch27.html
'Silent Choices': Black women speak out on abortion


June 27, 2004
BY MARY MITCHELL SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST



Most of us won't talk about abortion. No matter what our political beliefs are, we are not comfortable advocating the termination of a pregnancy. Although Roe vs. Wade has been the law of the land since 1973, abortion is still a whispered secret in many circles.

Outside of college campuses, it is hard to imagine black women marching to support abortion.

Faith Pennick, a director/producer from Brooklyn, hopes to change that reality. Pennick, a native Chicagoan, will be in town Tuesday to promote her documentary "Silent Choices." The project is still a work in progress. She has prepared a 71/2-minute segment she is using to help her raise funds needed to complete the film.

The benefit screening is being held at Intuit: The Center for Intuitive and Outsider Art, 756 N. Milwaukee, at 5:30 p.m. Tuesday. A minimum $50 donation is requested. Those interested in viewing the work in progress may contact Cleo Wilson of the Playboy Foundation at (312) 373-2435.

"We don't see ourselves in this issue," Pennick said. "Any mainstream media coverage of abortion-related issues only deals with Roe vs. Wade and will it stay legal. If you look at who is being interviewed, it is pretty much the same four or five white women. They are doing great work, but you never see black women of color talking about these issues on a national platform."

Pennick rattled off a few women she believed could fit that bill, including Dorothy Roberts, a professor at Northwestern University School of Law and author of Killing the Black Body: Race, Reproduction, and the Meaning of Liberty. Roberts will be one of the voices interviewed in Pennick's documentary.

"I think black women have a unique and important perspective which isn't always heard primarily because of the silence on the topic of abortion within the black community and the silencing of black women's voices in the broader society," Roberts said.


Staying away from the subject

"We talk about abortion in passing, but we don't get into what needs to be done to preserve it," Pennick said. "I think a lot of black women identify themselves as black first and women second. That is problematic. Having melanin does not supersede me from having a uterus."

I've stayed away from the subject of abortion because it is too easy to say what is right or wrong when you are past child-bearing. But some younger women are making choices that don't fit into the "liberal" category.

For instance, at a local village board meeting last year, a young black woman interrupted the meeting several times after the convener refused to allow her to speak about her pro-life agenda. And, as you grow older, you begin to re-examine the things you believed were right or wrong.

Pennick, who makes no apology for being a "pro-choice black woman" promises that "Silent Choices" would also include voices of black women who are pro-life.


Startling statistics

There are, after all, startling statistics being tossed around about black women and abortion.

Juluette Bartlett Pack, founder and president of Texas Black Americans for Life, claims that black women often think pro-life people distort statistics to shame black women about abortion. According to some pro-life groups, while black women make up only 14 percent of the women in the U.S. of childbearing age, the most recent national statistics show that 35.9 percent of all abortions were performed on African-American women.

"Abortion is very often touted as an economic solution for poor women, i.e., black women," Pack is quoted as saying in a speech included on several pro-life sites. "Strident pro-abortion feminists cry for abortion as a 'right' for which they must fight to keep. . . . The black community has not benefited either socially or economically from an atrocity. . . ."

Still, Pennick says there are "tons" of black people who are doing the work on the front lines to keep abortion as the law of the land. In fact, the reason she is doing the film is because of a "heated argument" she had with a pro-life friend in 1995.

"We were talking about the 1996 presidential election, and I was saying if we elect a Republican president, we could lose Roe vs. Wade, and that the president would have the power to appoint a pro-life justice. That's when she told me she didn't believe in abortion and abortion is wrong anyway," Pennick said.

"Finally after arguing for 20 minutes, she said abortion is a white woman's issue and black women have more important things to worry about. I think that statement is the crux of the problem."

If black women with credibility and a national platform join the debate over the impact of abortion on their own communities, it will be a new political ballgame. What has been pondered in silence by many will finally find a voice.

Abortion is the issue that reveals how America defines the meaning of life.

I thank Pennick for giving black women an opportunity to speak for themselves.


Copyright © The Sun-Times Company

[SELAM]

greetings in the name of the most high,

should it be legal? yes, if we put our moral standards in the laws we would be faced with stifling the liberties of those who do not believe as we do...

personally, i think it's wrong unless it directly affects the health of the child-bearer...

life is way too precious for a human to decide whether it deserves to be perserved. we don't have the wisdom to make such decisions...

but, to each his own. we shouldn't kill life, but we shouldn't kill free will either. a woman should have the right to make that decision on her own.

SELAM

[Blessed]

In today's society I believe that a majority of the women who have abortions are using it as a form of birth control, which is wrong.  They're are plenty of contraceptives on the market. It seems as though abortions have become a culture within itself of some sort.  Being able to reproduce is so important and for someone to just throw that away because they don't want to be bothered is obscene.  They're should be severe consequences for these actions.  WHo is there to protect the interests of the unborn child.  A fetus has a heart beat after 3 days I consider that murder to kill soemthing that is living and growing everyday.    

[Italist]

In a perfect world women would not have to go through half of the struggles that we do on aday to day basis existing in a capitalist society..despite this i do beleive that abortions are morally wrong,and i am not afraid to say , after making my claim that i have close friends who decided to abort, not many women today will say it, but it is prevalent..i cant tell you how many sleepless nights i have thinking that the day i have an abortion is the day that i will never get the chance to have babies again...needless to say i can imagine what the victims are going through...
Abortion is not right..but as society has it in some cases it is "socially responsible"...

[gman]

"That's the way I deal with enemies, like 'pro-lifers' who support the death penalty"- Immortal Technique
This ain't really a moral issue about whether abortion is right or wrong. You could be completely against abortion and still be in favor of its being legal. The simple fact of the matter is that if abortion is made illegal again it will still happen, it's just that the procedure will be more dangerous and unregulated and more mothers will die along with their fetuses. I'm sure the hypocritical religious right would like that, since they love to gloat over the suffering of people who they consider "sinners" in their self-righteous worldview.
That said I would say, in an ideal world there would be no abortion or very little, cos people would be educated about their sexuality so as not to make bad decisions, and safe contraceptive methods would be available for those who choose not to have children at present. Whether it's "murder" I think depends on the state of the fetus' developement. I find it hard to consider it "murder" when the fetus is the size of a pea and cannot feel pain. I find it hard NOT to consider it "murder" when it's a last-trimester abortion, and the baby is more or less fully developed, and can definitely feel pain since its nerves are developed. I also wonder why women who wait that long to have an abortion don't just go ahead and have the baby, it could hardly be more traumatic than having a late term abortion. Then again if you can't feed another mouth you just can't, and some women are forced to wait til late for an abortion cos they are expensive and they might not have the money right away. At the end of the day I will never be pregnant so my opinion doesn't count for that much. But I do think it's wrong when it's done in the last trimester. But I will never support abortion being made illegal, especially when these ideas are sponsored by the most hypocritical bloodthirsty people in the world who would burn in eternal hellfire (if eternal hellfire existed) long before any poor uneducated mother who feels she can't support another mouth to feed.

[Belle]

So many conflicting feelings regarding this issue. I think it should be legalized so that women won't put their lives @ risk by having unsafe abortions. However, I believe an abortion should only become an alternative when the pregnancy becomes life threatening to the mother, incest & rape.
I don't think a person other than a woman who has had an abortion can truly comprehend the void and loss she will forever experience in her life. The " not knowing" what that child could have aspired to be