Greetings from Afrika!!

[Bantu_Kelani]

I sincerely hope the conversation directs back towards Patriot Warriors trip...and Africa in general, that should be all of our primary focus.

Well, I am sorry I diverted the original topic of this thread. I've should known better than discussing colorism here...Shame on me!

B.K

[Oshun_Auset]

Well, I am sorry I diverted the original topic of this thread. I've should known better than discussing colorism here...Shame on me!

B.K

huh? I hope this was in jest...

I personally feel you asked legitimate questions that needed legitimate answers. This statement I made wasn't even directed towards any actions of yours...I thought we were supposed to keep the motherland and the masses as the focus...but of course we need to discuss side issues also...but I never called your questions a diversion. I'm starting to feel like I can't win for loosing no matter what I say on this thread...I give up on this one. But not on the site...or the struggle.

[gman]

I hope I could be forgiven for saying ONE more thing off the original topic of this thread, and then I will leave it alone other than to join Ayinde and others in asking Patriot Warrior for more reflections on his trip home.
The one thing is this, with all due respect, it seems totally unreasonable to take Oshun-Auset's statement that she saw the pic of the child and was shocked at how much she looked like her as a child, and make it seem like O.A. was deliberately trying to shift the focus of the conversation to light-skinned/mixed-race people. I really have a hard time believing that Ayinde, Yan or anyone (esp. having read O.A.'s posts before, which I don't think tend to emphasize light-skinned/mixed-race people), REALLY believes that that was the case. Also, I bet if you were to look through all the threads on here, you would find that the majority of them drifted from their original subject, regardless of if Oshun Auset, Bantu Kelani, myself or whoever posted on them. Believe it or not me saying this has nothing to do with standing in light-skinned solidarity with my mixed bredren and sistren, it just has to do with  fair judgements of people, and I really feel that was an unfair and unfounded judgement of Oshun Auset. With that said, I'm out.

[Ayinde]

Gman said: “it seems totally unreasonable to take Oshun-Auset's statement that she saw the pic of the child and was shocked at how much she looked like her as a child, and make it seem like O.A. was deliberately trying to shift the focus of the conversation to light-skinned/mixed-race people. I really have a hard time believing that Ayinde, Yan or anyone”

It is totally unreasonable for you to ‘distort’ what I said. You neglected the example I gave, which showed my observation of a conduct, in order to draw your ‘conclusion’. In Oshun’s response to which I responded, she was trying to make an issue of Yan’s point. I am showing that the diversion was real, and it took place from when she presented her photo, and how she presented it did not make her case of showing the child resembled her. The photo appeared to be more highlighting the similarity in their skin-color and maybe long hair, as I could not see from her adult photo a resemblance to the child in the photo apart from that.

I said:

You may have very genuinely felt that your moves were all innocent about seeing a child that reminded you of how you were when you were a child. But to some of us that is the usual conduct of light-skinned ones. It is like an automatic impulse to take the spotlight. Even if you felt the child looked like you when you were young, I failed to see how you made that point by posting an adult picture of you. The only thing that was obviously similar between the child's photo and your adult one is the fact that you were both light-skinned. If you had posted a picture of you around the same age of the child, we all would have been better able to see what was so similar beyond the obvious skin color.

If you are interpreting this quote to mean I said it was deliberately done, then I am saying that you are leaning on your own misunderstanding or your narrow view and interpretation of what I said. If I wanted I could have shown more examples than that lone observation about the pictures, which is in sync with the automatic conduct of many light-skinned and white ones.

Even feeling that everything a blacker one says or does should be understood by light-skinned, mixed race or White ones, or should be written in a way to be palatable to light-skinned, mixed race or White ones in order for it to be considered valid, is another example of how fairer-skinned/mixed race and white ones can play on privileges. I don’t feel it is necessary for you to understand or even agree with anything or everything I say. If you don’t see the things I do and say the same way I do, then that is quite understandable and in order.

The direction of the thread has already shifted, and I don’t think it is even practical for Patriot Warrior to continue on this thread. You all can go on with your discussion.

[gman]

The blasted computer just lost my response I just wrote to this. Very briefly: you said OA "may have" had innocent motivations in talking about PW's daughter etc., this implies that she may not have, which implies that you thought she COULD HAVE BEEN deliberately 'sabotaging' the thread as it were, to promote herself and other brown people, I just can't see how you could really believe that she could possibly have deliberately done this. It's not like she's some mystery person who's never posted here before, you can get some sense of where she's coming from from her other posts. As for the adult picture, I could see a resemblance beyond skintone and hair texture. OA's explanation that she didn't have any pics of herself as a child on hand sounds perfectly plausible to me. Basically the whole thing struck me as kind of making a mountain out of a molehill and insinuating that OA could have had questionable motives for her post, when I think you all know very well that she did not, it seemed more like the opportunity came up to put the third degree on OA and me as lighter-skinned folks, and was seized upon. Not saying there's anything wrong with getting that third degree, in fact I appreciate the points you all (SELF) and Bantu Kelani make on these sort of threads, they've led me to question some long-held assumptions and broadened my worldview, however in this case the general vibe I got was, AH-HA look a light-skinned person 'slipped up'/'revealed their true colors' or something, let's get em! Which would be fine if O.A. HAD, but I don't think she did at all, and I still don't think that you all really thought that she did, it seemed like just a convenient excuse to criticize her.
When you say I 'distort' your words Ayinde, I think in general its cos I have a different approach to this forum than you, I respond kind of informally to my general impression of what people are saying, I don't necessarily analyze things line for line and have the person's original statement in front of me. I may be a sloppy debater by the standards of this forum, but I don't deliberately set out to distort what you say.

[gman]

P.S. I don't really see where I made the assumption that everything a blacker one does or says should be made palatable to lighter skinned, mixed and white ones.
But I think if you're talking to a bunch of people you (generic 'you' not you personally) should try your best to be clearly understood by everyone you're talking to. I don't know if this was at all a reference to my question on the other board about your thought on poverty, but in that case I don't think the fact that I (apparently) didn't clearly understand what you were saying had anything to do with my being lighter-skinned or mixed. It was just plain open to misinterpretation. Certainly a blacker one on that thread misinterpreted it (though then again we both know that that particular person doesn't like you much, so he might have been quicker to misinterpret something in a way that would make you look bad).
Well I guess I should learn to use all the quote functions and whatnot, so I don't distort anyone's words.

[preach]

  As much as everyone hates to admit it the direction this thread took was necessary and inevitable. The topic is obviously heated and needs to be further explored if not now later. I feel that light complected and/or multiracial individuals should not be made to feel inferior. Darker skin does not make
an individual superior, a better leader, closer to afrika, or more inforned Ayinde. Cornel West in race matters states, "The days of brokering for the black turf - of posing as the Head Negro In Charge - are over. To be a serious black leader is to be a race-transcending prophet who critiques the powers that be ( including the black component of the Establishment) and who puts forward a vision of fundamental change for all who suffer from socially induced misery." I take from and add to the latter, complexion-transcending. We all have at one time or another have felt some prejudice toward us whether light or dark. The whole light vs dark thing only creates elitist groups, and propels seperatism

[gman]

I feel you Preach, but just to clarify, I never said and I never felt that Ayinde or anyone was putting themselves up as 'superior' because they are dark-skinned. (Maybe Bantu Kelani a bit with her talk of 'purity' but I wouldn't even say that til I hash out the issue more with her). It is a fact that to some extent at least there already has been an elite group created, i.e. lighter-skinned people. This is speaking in broad generalities. Well I can't complete my thoughts, I've got to go.

[kristine]

It seems far from the original intentions of a trip to Africa being shared here, this thread has even gone beyond race and skin color. There is an alarming amount of overt and covert dishonesty going on.  
 
With my post on mixed race children (in direct response to a request to try to understand this better) I included my feelings to an idea presented recently by a regular poster on the general board.  
 
"I feel the suggestions that this be a tool to end racism are pure folly on the part of anyone clinging to such a faulty belief system. The individual who would make that suggestion is obviously not directly experienced, and so therefore is making wild assumptions in an attempt to avoid the responsibilities of each and every one of us to do our best daily to break down the Racist System. I would suggest anyone who makes such a suggestion, needs to spend some more time getting educated out of such ignorance. There is no longer any excuse not to."
 
Only Kelani knows how she did not see this, as I am aware she follows most of the issues regularly. Now even if this was not clear to her, instead of assuming what I was referring to, asking might have been viewed as less of an attempt to draw a defensive response to match wits, and it would have shown a respect for my right to examine and discuss this issue. Oshun’s concurrent on Kelani’s take made this more apparent, as it was questionable whether Oshun even bothered to read what I had said.  
 
This thread has been filled with many other examples of questionable intentions to outright dishonesty. The usual response is overly defensiveness or even more distortions to cover the distortions. Take the example of my saying, "However I would suggest that with careful and proper guidance, mixed children can have a function as a bridge to knowledge of both sides of the various race issues." Gman tried to make it appear this was offensive by changing and deleting certain words to again create an atmosphere of confrontation. Yes, this too was a distortion.  
 
Other examples have been brought forward, yet it seems impossible to admit to this, and try to correct the errors in honesty.  
 
The bottom line is honesty doesn't come in degrees. Deceptions such as using excuses like not knowing how to use the quote function while deliberately not quoting correctly are not little mistakes. Honesty doesn't come in a diet form by leaving out or changing key ingredients. It cannot be slimmed down by using it sparingly or only when convenient to prove one’s opinion/feelings are more correct. What would it take for ones to simply admit they don't understand, be it the issue at hand or an individual’s comments?

[Bantu_Kelani]

It seems far from the original intentions of a trip to Africa being shared here, this thread has even gone beyond race and skin color. There is an alarming amount of overt and covert dishonesty going on.  

Patriot Warrior appears to be a fierce defender of the purity of Black Culture and the Black Race but gee, I see his daughter being a mixed race child. So me as usual, I want to have a clue.. If you think seeing (large) pictures of light skinned multiracials in this thread wouldn't tickle the Black Pride sentiment of the dark skinned black/Africans on this message board I'm sorry, you must be crazy.

B.K

[gman]

kristine,
Look nuh. I started out that statement by saying I was NOT trying to jump down your throat, but that if YOU re-read what YOU posted I thought YOU might see how someone in my position might find at least THE WORDING of it offensive. Where the HELL did I 'distort' anything you said. I referred to exactly what you just re-quoted yourself saying. I guess you really can't see how you as a white person telling me what my 'function' is could POSSIBLY be seen as offensive in any way. If you can't see that, fine, but don't go talking nonsense bout I 'distorting' what you said. I cannot be bothered to go back over the two posts. But if you can show me how in hell I distorted anything you said, I will send you a blasted prize in the mail. Maybe I quoted you saying 'bridge the divide' instead of 'bridge the gap' or vice versa or something like that, I haven't been using the 'quote' tools so I might not have quoted you precisely word for word, although to my recollection I did. You show me how anything I quoted you as saying 'distorted' what you just quoted yourself as saying. Anyway, just refer back to what you just re-quoted, and consider what I wrote a response to that, which it was.

[gman]

"gman tried to make it appear that this was offensive by changing or deleting certain words"
I didn't bloody TRY to make anything APPEAR offensive, I TOLD you that at least the WORDING of what you said offended ME.
I see now where I just slightly misquoted you again. You are mistaking the fact that I type quick responses without necessarily going over everything line-by-line like we in a model U.N. debate, with 'distorting' what you said. How does "bridge to knowledge" as opposed to "bridge the gap" change the general meaning of what you were saying? If you check back at my response I mostly objected to the wording "function" and "careful and proper guidance" and the hackneyed idea of us 'multiracial' people as "a bridge".
Most of all I just object to the idea of any white person telling me who the rass I am or what the rass my function is.
I may never know what it is to be 'fully Black' and I will certainly never know what it is to be in any way white, well by the same token you will never know what it is to be a B.A.D.N. (see one of my previous posts) so why you trying to tell me about it?

[gman]

WTF... who is being 'dishonest' now... cos I thought I would actually go back and re-read that message, and guess what, that was the one time I DID use the quote function (though apparently not correctly cos it didn't come out in a little box.) So Kristine your entire quote was right there at the top of my blasted post, so how de rass I 'misquoting' you let alone "deliberately" misquoting you (as if you could telepathically read my intentions). KINDLY RESPOND AND EXPLAIN THAT.

[kristine]

Perhaps, gman, you could reread your post, and reflect on the second time you tried to quote me – yes, omitting words to distort what I was saying - to apply to yourself what was intended as a general suggestion in regard to mixed race children.    
   
You said:  
 
"Perhaps it's a matter of wording rather than the concept behind it, but the idea that "with careful and proper guidance" I can "have a function" "    
   
However, I said:    
   
"with careful and proper guidance, mixed children can have a function as a bridge to knowledge"    

"a function", meaning just one apart from many, and not only one function.
   
My entire statement again:    
   
"However I would suggest that with careful and proper guidance, mixed children can have a function as a bridge to knowledge of both sides of the various race issues, although they will not be able to ever really experience the full impact of being Black or White, and yes, ultimately they, themselves will have to settle where they feel they fit best, hopefully totally comfortable relating to both sides of their identity.”  
 
As I said before:  
 
"What would it take for ones to simply admit they don't understand, be it the issue at hand or an individual's comments?"    
 
I guess you can respond to me in the style of a thug, because I am white.

[gman]

"The style of a thug"? Where the hell does that come from? You trying to goad me into blowing my top and getting deleted from the thread or something? Using very mild so-called swear words like "blasted" and "rass", to show that one is in fact a bit angry, makes one a "Thug"? What is a "thug" anyway? Now you're a white victim? You think your little legalistic searching through words to find where I supposedly "misquoted" you (by making the ****COMPLETELY UNJUSTIFIABLE**** assumption that since you said "mixed children" and since I am or once was a "mixed child" then you would be referring to ME as well as all the other mixed children in the world, and since I was TRYING to get you to see how the WORDING of your post COULD be seen as offensive by mixed-race people I EXPLAINED to you HOW it seemed offensive to ME).
The plurality or singularity of the word "function" was something I had not even thought about. It was the mechanical-ness of the word itself that as I EXPLAINED TO YOU "RUBBED ME THE WRONG WAY". I did not say that you deliberately set out to rub me the wrong way, just explained that that wording DID. You on the other hand seem utterly convinced that I deliberately set out to "distort" your words (DESPITE ALL YOUR WORDS BEING RIGHT THERE AT THE TOP OF THE POST FOR ALL TO SEE) in order to personally attack you. I can assure you that nothing was farther from my mind, but since you are convinced that I'm out to get you cos you a honkey so you fair game (but I never say ANYTHING to the Black people I disagree with, do I??), nothing I say will convince you otherwise.
The funny thing is, I was never even trying to accuse you of anything or to make you 'look bad' or anything, I was trying to get YOU to see how the WORDING of what you said seemed offensive to me. Your reaction, ironically enough for someone going on about people's defensiveness, is EXTREME defensiveness when I wasn't even ACCUSING you of anything, just trying to show you why I thought that was a poor choice of words! But you INSIST that I was DELIBERATELY trying to DISTORT what you said! That's complete garbage and anyone that goes over the damn threads would be able to see that, so I done with this, it's only getting me angry and I have things to do today, so kristine I will bid you adieu. Have a most pleasant life and I'm so glad that you are now an enlightened whitey who knows everything, you know what's best for the other whities, and it looks like you know what's best for the darkies too, well isn't that nice, bye bye now.