Print Page - Religious trickery (Racism tied to Religion)

Religious trickery (Racism tied to Religion)-

My concern here is to speak out and liberate us from a doctrine that cannot save African people but enslave them. Christianity has made Africans docile and passive while the so-called white Christian rules the world and practice unchristian ways, just as ISLAM has made the African an Arab.. The bible's main purpose was a justification and a rationalization for the slave trade against people outside of Europe. That is the whole purpose and it was created from a collection of books for European Power desires. The "the other people outside of Europe" are older than "Adam and Eve story" an Enkidu story from Ancient Sumer. The Enkidu story was stolen from the Sumer tales and the names were changed when the white man found the story and made it Adam & Eve. What the world fail to realize is that before Europe came into existence in 808 BCE with Homer there was over 10,000 years of African Civilization before the Greeks and AFRICAN WERE MUCH MORE SPIRITUAL AND HAD MUCH MORE INTEGRITY.

Islam, Christianity and Judaism all three religions were taken out of Africa, then resold to us when brought back to us by Male Chauvinist Murder cult societies that's out there to Murder the Africans all over the World. I have problems with ISLAM as well as Christians from an African perspective. First lets Attack Christianity for the "Ham Nonsense" first Noah's son Called Ham who never existed just like many things in the bible like the Adam & Eve story or Fable is a better word. This has been a Justification for Slavery by Protestants and Catholics and ISLAM. Ham Never existed you can find no Hamites in Africa or in the Middle East. Just as much as there is no "Negro in Africa". Christians have been the most Murderous bunch on the face of this Earth. Lets see they come to other people's land with the bible in one hand and taking the land with other. Missionaries in South America in 1977 use the "Panarai Indians as an example and said the Panarai Indians Killed Jesus Christ to convert the Panarai Indians to Christ". Don't take my word for it read for yourself get Norman Lewis Book " GOD Against the Indians".
Remember the First Slave ship that came to America with Africans was on a ship called the Jesus Christ " I wonder How many Christians Killed Africans in the Middle passage over 600 Million People was killed from 1497-1922. And Christians are going to tell you that the only way you can be saved is to have the Blood Jesus whip on you. That was the same thing Pope Martin said when he endorse Slavery for the Europeans to enslave Africans. Later the same Christians sent Missionaries around the world and use a white Jesus that again colonized people of color the world over the world.

Now Islam and the Arabs came to Africa when the Africans were trying to get the Romans of their Back and Islam and the Arabs did get the Romans off the Africans Back. But they replace the Romans on the Africans back and haven't left yet. Sudan is a perfect example where the Arab and Mulattos Africans still enslave Africans from the south today and the fight today is making Africans convert or be slaughtered. A lot of blacks see and regard Arabs as our brothers. They are not and will never be our brothers.
The Arabs have done and are continuing to do great and severe injustices to Africa and Africans. Arab racism is more evident in the periphery of the Arab Middle East. Arab slavery and imperialism is an unknown tragedy, which produces misconceptions among the Black communities. This is dangerous! A good number of Diaspora Africans seem to confuse AFRICANISM with ARABISM. In an attempt to escape white cultural domination, Diaspora Africans and blacks are turning in large numbers to Islam. Lacking any historical or contemporary knowledge of Arab slavery, they are adopting Arab names and culture as a way of avoiding slave names and heritage. Arab leaders have always asserted their superiority over blacks, through their religion, language and culture. For example in the book, "The Arabs as Master Slavers" King Ibn Saud, the preeminent Saudi Arabian ruler, is quoted as having stated that he kept slaves as a matter of "Divine right". He maintained that because the Arabs are the chosen people of God, all others were subservient to them. Furthermore, Libya's President, Mua'ammur Quadaffi, has said that because of his country's oil wealth, he could "buy the Africans". This is evident in his efforts in the African union. Having failed in his plans for an Arab union. Africa is on the verge of being completely taken over by the Arabs. Today they control and own about 40% of Africa. Morocco, Mauritania Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Chad, Niger, Sudan, Egypt, Eritrea, Djibouti, Somalia, Comoros Islands and many more are considered Arab countries and all belong to the Arab League. If you don't believe me then go yourself to Egypt, Libya, Morocco or any of these countries and tell them they are Africans. You will be lucky to escape with your life just for calling them Africans.

If you look everywhere in HISTORY you see other people use their Religion to take from AFRICA what they did not want to pay for.

It does not Matter what cloak the African wears if he or she is a follower of the Major Male Chauvinist Murder cults we will always be in conflict with each other. Christianity, ISLAM or Judaism is culturally ANTITHETICAL to African people because it teaches separation from others instead of Oneness. ONENESS, which is the foundation of TRADITIONAL AFRICAN BELIEFS. African people were the only group of humans on this planet who actually lived and practice rituals and beliefs depicted in the bible. For many thousands of years our Ancestors worshipped Women, revered and idolized them. Ancient records show our Black Women as GODDESS, Queen, Scholar, Diplomat, Scientist, Icon, Prophet and Freedom fighting warrior often above her father, husband and brothers. No other human of any racial or ethnic type has been so widely venerated as has the AFRICAN WOMAN. What Africans and Africans descent people need to understand since we live in a Eurocentric universe today is before the invasions when Africa was at her Zenith, African People did not come from a Male Chauvinist Murder cult society like the Europeans or the Sand people of the desert African WOMAN WERE AT THE CENTER OF OUR LIVES. And at that time Africans were the Most Spiritual and had the Most Integrity.
When our Slave master decided to give us the Bible, the Koran or the Torah it was done so to make the slaves work better and keep us docile which sad to say we as a people are still are. For as long as we worship the foreign Male Chauvinist Murder Religions, we will be a lost people with no foundation, no goals, no self-determination.

Christianity, Islam and Judaism religions are not much more than a mere speck on the broad tapestry that is ALKEBULAN History. From SONGHAY to KEMET to ZULU to ASHANTI there is so much more than their Lie of History. Only through the practice and growth of our truest religion and Ancient Culture will we ever be liberated!

Knowledge is Power Ignorance is Oppression. Studying the works of Haile I SelaissieI, Patrice LUMUMBA, Osagyefo Kwame Nkrumah, the honorable Malcolm X, and The honorable Marcus Garvey, should open the eye of All. We must start AFRICAN UNITY NOW!

Mayeli Na Makasi!
(Power 'n strength)

Kelani-

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I apologize, but your arguement is absurd. In the quran it says '"Your slaves are your brethren upon whom Allah has given you authority. So, if one has one's brethren under one's control, one should feed them with the like of what one eats and clothe them with the like of what one wears. You should not overburden them with what they cannot bear, and if you do so, help them (in their hard job). "

Now notice they say nothing about only black people being slaves, nor does it discriminate at all.

there are also many surahs stating that you must free slaves

EDIT: you cannot judge muslim people by other muslim people, only by the quran. educate yourself, read, learn

You are using the Qu'ran to back up your argumentation even if there is NOTHING that is original about of the Qu'ran. The foundational concepts of the Hebrew Torah, the bible and Qu'ran are COPIED nearly word for word from the Book of Coming forth by Day commonly known as "The Book of the Dead"...But the Torah, the Bible and QU'RAN have been so CORRUPTED to suit the political and Econonic benefit of the Oppressors, that it's hard to know with any certainty what to take literally or figuratively! And you say this JUNK could be the Word of God :o??!

Yeah right..more like drunken White Men writing Lies about Some Fire & Brimstone God from the Culture they come from! And since most of it come from Desert People who stole it from Other Cultures we can see how people like you and Black people in general can be confused by such nonsense. ???....

When your God has Been assigned to you by Your Oppressor you are still Oppressed!
Dr John Henrick Clarke.

Kelani-

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Where is your proof of this? Why is the ORIGINAL quran still intact as it was written in its ORIGINAL time? Can you replicate any of the words written in the quran? No, the pure language is too complex for a human being to write. show me a surah like the quran

EDIT: Im assuming now that you have read the quran AND the book of the dead? Well I read the majority of the book of the dead and ive read the entire quran and I see nothing in common with the two. You made that up.

EDIT 2: "But the Torah, the Bible and QU'RAN have been so CORRUPTED to suit the political and Econonic benefit of the Oppressors, that it's hard to know with any certainty what to take literally or figuratively!" How does the Quran in anyway benefit one person more than another? Again, Read it before you argue against it.

Racism and Religion
By George G.M. James

James died under mysterious circumstances shortly after the publication of Stolen Legacy in 1954.

"The Roman government, which through the edicts of Emperors Theodosius and Justinian closed down the Egyptian Mysteries...The result of this was the misrepresentation and erroneous opinion that the African Continent and people are backward in culture and have made no contribution to civilization and (B) the establishment of Christianity as a rival against the (Egyptian) Mysteries or African system of culture, in order to perpetuate this erroneous opinion. A further result has been the false worship of Greek intellect and the activities of Missionary enterprise through which the culture of Black people is caricatured both in literature and in exhibitions".

Also in 390 AD the temple of Serapis and the adjacent great library of Alexandria were destroyed by a Christian mob; twenty-five years later, the brilliant and beautiful philosopher and mathematician hypatia was gruesomely murdered in the same city by a gang of monks instigated by St Cyril. These two acts of violence mark the end of Egyptian religion and the beginning of the Christian Dark Ages.

When the Christians came into power after the edict of Constantine they were powerless against the great hold of the black Madonna on the people so they ended it by compounding her religion with theirs, changing her name of Hathor/Isis to Mary.

James continues: "Egypt was the Holy land of the ancient world and the mysteries were the one, ancient and Holy Catholic religion, whose power was supreme. This lofty culture system of the black people filled Rome with envy, and consequently she legalized Christianity, which she had persecuted for five long centuries, and set up as a state religion and as a rival of mysteries, its own mother. this is why the mysteries have been despised; this is why other ancient religions of the Black people are despised; because they are all offspring of the African mysteries, which have never been clearly understood by Europeans, and consequently have provoked their prejudice and condemnation. In keeping with the plan of Emperors Theodosius and Justinian to exterminate and forever suppress the culture system of the African continents the Christian church established its missionary enterprise to fight against what it has called paganism. Consequently missionaries and educators have gone to the mission field with a superiority complex, born of mis-education and disrespect: a prejudice which has made it impossible for them to accomplish the blessings which missionary enterprise might otherwise have accomplished. For this reason Missionary enterprise has been responsible for a positive injury against the African people, which consists of the perpetual caricature of African culture in literature and exhibitions which provoke laughter and disrespect....white and black races not only common victims of a false racial tradition about the African Continent but also partners in the solution of the problem of racial reformation".

The assault on Egypt and its history has always been under fire. The fire of hate was half burning until the 19th century when the Europeans totally rejected Egypt giving any contributions to Greece and Rome. But during this same time archaeology findings like the Rosetta stone were producing replica texts of Christianity before there was a Bible produced. I have no problem with Christianity and religion I love them all. Its okay to believe in any humanitarian doctrine you want, that our rights. What I object to is the way its been imposed upon people through the use of fear, guilt, violence and the suppression of alternative thought. But slowly this will fade with the truth coming out.

And until a long hearing of the facts reversed, perverted and falsified, makes one feel as if under a nightmare which has lasted for eighteen centuries, knowing the Truth to have been buried alive and made dumb all that time; and believing that it has only to get voice and make itself heard to end the lying once for all, and bring down the curtain of oblivion at last upon the most pitiful drama of delusion ever witnessed on the human stage.

Bantu-Kelani, I disagree with you on many points. Here are six of them:

1. "The bible's main purpose was a justification and a rationalization for the slave trade against people outside of Europe. That is the whole purpose and it was created from a collection of books for European Power desires."

These statements are false. Much of what is contained in the Bible- the entire Old Testament, as well as the Gospel of Matthew, the Gospel of John, Galatians, First John, Second John, Third John, James and Revelation- does not originate from Europe, while the origins of Hebrews and Jude are unknown. Indeed, the compilation of the New Testament began in the second century CE and was not complete until the fourth century- more than a millennium before Portuguese Christians began to acquire slaves from sub-Saharan Africa. Further, it is difficult to describe Christianity as either essentially European or essentially un-African. Christianity, received via Egypt, was adopted by Ezana, king of Ethiopian Aksum, around 325, while it was not adopted as the state religion of the Roman Empire until the reign of Theodosius (378-395). Christian missionaries were active in Nubia as early as 542 but did arrive in Germany or Scandinavia until much longer after that.

2. "What the world fail to realize is that before Europe came into existence in 808 BCE with Homer there was over 10,000 years of African Civilization before the Greeks and AFRICAN WERE MUCH MORE SPIRITUAL AND HAD MUCH MORE INTEGRITY."

How was it that "Europe came into existence in 808 BCE with Homer"? The geographical entity known as Europe has existed for millions of years. Helladic civilization emerged in that region over two thousand years before Homer. The etymological roots of the term "Europe" are to be found in ancient Assyrian. The geographical concept of Europe was further developed by classical thinkers such as Strabo, while the notion of a "European" culture did not begin to emerge until the sixteenth century.

Any reference to "civilization" should be accompanied by a definition of the term. If "civilization" is to be defined as a Neolithic society that produced ceramics, the first African civilization emerged in Nubia around 8000 BCE while the first such civilization emerged in Greece some 2000 years later, around 6000 BCE. Alternatively, if "civilization" is identified with the ability to produce bronze tools, distinct civilizations emerged in Egypt, Nubia, Crete, Greece and Mesopotamia around 3000 BCE. It is, at any rate, problematic to maintain that "there was over 10,000 years of African Civilization before the Greeks."

Finally, how is it possible to know that Africans, or even particular groups of Africans, "were much more spiritual and had much more integrity" than any other people nearly three thousand years ago? The supposed comparison is meaningless.

3. "Now Islam and the Arabs came to Africa when the Africans were trying to get the Romans of their Back and Islam and the Arabs did get the Romans off the Africans Back."

When the Muslim conquests began in the early 630s CE the only parts of Africa controlled by the Roman (Byzantine) Empire were coastal Cyrenaica and northern Egypt. It makes little sense to say that "the Africans" were attempting to rid themselves of Roman rule upon the arrival of Arab invaders, for this is like saying that "the Europeans" were trying to get the Moors "off their back" during the Spanish "reconquista."

4. "Bible LITERALISM is OUTDATED and MEDIAVAL, BEST LEFT TO THOSE in DARKAGES!!"

It is plainly misleading to suggest that "Bible literalism" is either "outdated" or "medi[e]val." Medieval Christian theologians viewed Scripture in four possible categories of meaning: the letter (literal), the allegory, the moral teaching and the anagogy. There were of course disagreements regarding the relative merits of these categories. For example, while Diodorus of Tarsus, Hugh St. Victor, Thomas Aquinas and Nicholas of Lyra emphasized the literal interpretation at the expense of the allegorical, this latter interpretation was supported by, among others, Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Jacques Lefèvre d'Etaples.

5. "Also in 390 AD the temple of Serapis and the adjacent great library of Alexandria were destroyed by a Christian mob; twenty-five years later, the brilliant and beautiful philosopher and mathematician hypatia was gruesomely murdered in the same city by a gang of monks instigated by St Cyril."

Neither the temple of Serapis nor the library of Alexandria were of native Egyptian origin; bothwere built under the Macedonian king Ptolemy I. Alexandria was of course founded by Alexander of Macedon in 331 BCE. The Serapis worshipped at this temple was a deity fused from the characteristics of the Egyptian Serapis (itself a fusion of Osiris and the bull Apis) and the characteristics of Greek gods such as Zeus and Helios. Although damaged by rioting Christians in 391, the library of Alexandria was not "destroyed" until 641 when the Caliph of Baghdad ordered that the books stored there be burnt.

It is interesting that you bring up the murder of Hypatia. According to Socrates Scholasticus (c. 380-450), a lawyer and historian from Constantinople, Egyptian (Christian) monks killed Hypatia because they believed that she had some influence over the Roman prefect Orestes, a pagan who had complained to the emperor after the monks had forced out the Jews of Alexandria. This murder had nothing to do with any conflict between Rome and Egyptian religion.

6. "But during this same time archaeology findings like the Rosetta stone were producing replica texts of Christianity before there was a Bible produced."

While the Bible contains certain Egyptian motifs and words of Egyptian origin, no "archaelogical findings" have produced anything resembling "replica texts of Christianity." I do not see any resemblance between the text of the Rosetta stone itself and anything in the Bible.

It should be added that James is highly unreliable.

1. "The Roman government, which through the edicts of Emperors Theodosius and Justinian closed down the Egyptian Mysteries...The result of this was the misrepresentation and erroneous opinion that the African Continent and people are backward in culture and have made no contribution to civilization and (B) the establishment of Christianity as a rival against the (Egyptian) Mysteries or African system of culture, in order to perpetuate this erroneous opinion."

Theodosian edicts did not single out Egyptian practices; instead, they outlawed all manners of pagan worship. Further, while some of the deities worshipped by mystery cults were Egyptian (such as Isis and Separis), others were not (such as the Greek Dionysius and the Persian Mithrias). More importantly, the practices of the mystery cults are of Greek origin. The Homeric Hymn to Demeter was the basis for the Eleusian Mysteries, practiced as early as the seventh century BCE. There is no record of there having been a mystery cult in Egypt before the Macedonian conquest.

2. "This lofty culture system of the black people filled Rome with envy, and consequently she legalized Christianity, which she had persecuted for five long centuries, and set up as a state religion and as a rival of mysteries, its own mother. this is why the mysteries have been despised; this is why other ancient religions of the Black people are despised; because they are all offspring of the African mysteries, which have never been clearly understood by Europeans, and consequently have provoked their prejudice and condemnation."

There is not a shred of evidence suggesting that any "lofty culture system of the black people filled Rome with envy" or that Christianity was legalized in order to suppress the mysteries. Moreover, James erroneously suggests that Christians had been persecuted in the Roman Empire for "five long centuries" by the time their religion was legalized. Christianity emerged in the early first century and was legalized by Constantine's Edict of Milan in 313, less than three centuries after the Gospels were written. The phrase "five long centuries also suggests that the Christians were continuously persecuted accross the empire when, apart from the reign of Diocletian (284-305), the persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire was both sporadic and regional.

Greetings in the name of the most high Jah!

Most thanks to Bantu-Kelani for bringing this topic to surface once again

I man just like to add my opinion here without having to resort to old historical facts (most of which are inaccurate).
Christianity as I man is aware is not an African Concept, I am of the yoruba tribe and we practice our own religion (Ifa). No doubt christianity was thrust upon we Africans with great weight and yoke this cannot be denied by missionaries from Europe and afar. Racism was the pill and Africans were taught to hate all that was old and love that which is new Christian.

For ryu9
Your argument seems to weigh heavily in favour of Europe, whilst your use of names and dates also show your grasp of European history!but not entirely that of christian history.Nor African history. Christianity brought with it excess baggage of racism upon the people of Africa by its European missionaries!!!

" IN THE ADVANCEMENT OF ITS OWN CULTURE ALONE LIES TRUE PROGRESS FOR AFRICANS" .

A people can only progress through the upward development of what it already possesses, and not by the adoption of something it has borrowed. Taking something over is not progress, for progress is InI know it, shows itself in the improvement of what already exist. This alone should cause some reflection, seen!. What is borrowed (christianity) or taken over is not our property, not even if Africans now choose to now make it so!with the excess amount of evanglical churches springing up in Africa usurping peoples money in the name of Christianity!!!

Christinaity is not something we have persoanlly achieved, and is not a result of african people's own spirit, of which alone InI can be and must be proud!

We as Africans, have to be great within Africa,(we have to let the people there become great within thereselves) entirely out of Africa, and through our own abilities in Africa. Therefore true progress for Africans again, lies solely in the development of its own culture adapted to the soil, climate and race.

Failure to observe this simply law is what has resulted in retrogression and collapse in Africa as witness today.

Bantu-Kelani keep educating and leave distractors like ryu9 with his European blundered mind still struggle to grasp things with his earthly intellect.This topic is spiritual and calls forth for spiritual understanding not no academic mind boggling date spewing rivalry. But what does it profit you to acquire all this knowledge which is very binding.

Time as come to forge ahead in awakening Africa to its lost glory.

Africans at home and abroad should always be aware of adopting the habits and customs of people alien to our nature. Not to mention all the foreign opinions now thrust upon our so called "leaders" in Africa Who are acting like fools with no brain adopting all this so called foreign policies - IMF, World Bank, etc and quite clearly against its peoples interest.

DEM ALL CRACY!!!!..........democracy????

Rasta nah have time to play blind.

Bless up

Rootsie, the “overarching point” seems to have been four-fold:

1. Modern Christian missionaries were European, therefore Christianity is essentially European.

2. Since modern Christian missionaries arrived in Africa amidst the Atlantic slave trade and colonialism, Christianity was founded for the purpose of oppressing Africans.

3. Since Christianity is derived from Judaism, Judaism was also founded for the purpose of oppressing Africans.

4. Since Muslims conquered and enslaved Africans, and since Islam is also derived from Judaism, Islam was founded for the purpose of conquering and enslaving Africans.

Though I said little about Judaism and Islam, my argument certainly disproves the first two points.

There seems to be another argument that I have not addressed: that Judaism, Christianity and Islam must be rejected in order to resist western imperialism. With respect to Christianity, Bantu-Kelani states that, “My concern here is to speak out and liberate us from a doctrine that cannot save African people but enslave them. Christianity has made Africans docile and passive . . .”

Similarly, according to RasBenjamine:

“Christinaity is not something we have persoanlly achieved, and is not a result of african people's own spirit, of which alone InI can be and must be proud! . . .
Therefore true progress for Africans again, lies solely in the development of its own culture adapted to the soil, climate and race. Failure to observe this simply law is what has resulted in retrogression and collapse in Africa as witness today.”

This would have been strange news to Ethiopian Christians, whose tradition is now nearly 1700 years old, and it would have been particularly strange to the Christian Menelik II, the only African leader to have successfully halted a European military incursion during the “scramble for Africa.”

RasBenjamine. I am in no way advocating against the adoption and promotion of traditions native to Africa, nor am I advocating the adoption of Christianity per se, but it must be remembered that culture is always in motion; it is constantly being adopted, transferred, absorbed, exported, reformed, modified, etc.

For example, Christianity was brought to Saxony (northern Germany) by force. The Frankish king Charlemagne (768-814) waged war against the Saxons for nearly thirty years in order to expand his empire and impose Christianity on these people. Eventually, they succumbed, but by the middle of the tenth century Germans were making important contributions to Christian culture. Thus, does a “real German” reject Christianity in favor of ancient Germanic gods, despite the fact that Germans have been central to the development of Christianity (the Lutheran Reformation!) for about a thousand years?

The cultural interchange between Egypt and Greece is similarly instructive. The earliest Greek sculptures, which have been dated to about 600 BCE, were clearly influenced by Egyptian sculpture. Yet the sculptures of fifth-century (BCE) Greece, best exemplified by “Zeus from the Sea” and “Diskobolos,” bear no sign of any Egyptian influence. Are these sculptures therefore “not Greek” or somehow artistically worthless because the Greeks had learnt the art of sculpture from the Egyptians?

Bantu-Kelani, you chastise me for not being African.

“You are not Even AFRIKAN! Why should I waste my time reasoning with someone who has NEVER felt and suffered for 500 years due to INVASIONS, ENSLAVEMENT and OPPRESSION??”

I have never “suffered for 500 years,” but then again neither has anyone else, unless they have lived for that length of time. You may have suffered indirectly from the invasions, enslavement and oppression to which you refer, but the direct connection you draw between yourself and these past events is entirely artificial. Two parallel examples may be of some use. Can contemporary Jews feel the suffering of those detained and killed in Nazi concentration camps? Do contemporary Germans or German-Americans feel the suffering of the Saxons murdered by Charlemagne, the millions of Germans massacred by Imperial, Spanish, French and Swedish armies during the Thirty Years’ War (1618-1648), or those Germans killed by the warmongering of Louis XIV (1688-1697, 1702-1713) and Napoleon (1802-1814)? No- such people can only feel this suffering by inventing it for themselves.

If you dont' this already I'm a Congolese Woman from the DRC CONGO! Do you know WHERE the DRC Congo Is located in the Globe?? Do you know the ATROCITIES that have been going on there since your savage, barbaric, brutish, hateful, non-spiritual Caucasoids/Europeans people came and DESTROYED my Country, DESTROYED our NATURAL WAY OF LIFE and CONTINUE TO DO?? Do you know about the GENOCIDES perpetuated by KING LEOPOLD II there, the BELGIAN BRUTAL COLONIZATION, PATRICE LUMUMBA'S Assassination, Western rule under MOBUTU, the INVASION by Rwanda, Burundi...the ECONOMIC EMBARGO, LAURENT KABILA'S ASSASSINATION, MASSACRES of MILLIONS of my People by BELGIUM and the WEST??

I ask again, do you know about ALL the Atrocities that have been going on in my country since your missionaries set foot in MY LAND? I HAD to leave my HOME, my Ancestral VILLAGE because of the ONGOING WAR/GENOCIDES in DRC. My family and I experienced FAMINE and depravation wandering helplessly in Tanzania, Zambia, Angola before obtaining Asylum in Europe and AmeriKKKA. I lost FRIENDS during the BRUTAL REIGN of Mobutu and L.Kabila. MILLIONS refugees like ourselves had to leave their HOMES, COUNTRY to be treated like dogs in the WEST AGAIN . DO YOU CALL my Existence a LIFE? I CALL our Lives HELL!

WE Congolese people INSIDE and OUTSIDE the country endure so MANY ILLS, so MUCH DEGRADATION so MUCH SUFFERING it's UNBEARABLE! . IT REALLY BURNS ME UP! Have you ever been so cruelly robbed of your Resources, Destroyed of your previous religions, so much HATED?? No you HAVEN'T! So don't come here TELL ME how I should FEEL and THINK, I will NEVER receive any advice form ANYONE who has never FELT and SUFFERED as much as ME and MY PEOPLE have suffered WORLDWIDE. The more I LIVE, the more I SEE, the more I READ and HEAR about the HARDSHIP and HUMILIATION we AFRIKANS experience all over the world, the more I will DENOUNCE Your People and ACCOMPLICES -including my OWN RACE- Machinations and CORRUPT Designs to Exploit, ROB and KILL us even MORE!

I will ALWAYS CRY with Passion and Despair the REDEMPTION and FREEDOM of AFRICA and AFRICANS WORLDWIDE! We AFRIKANS have been denied our RIGHTS for for TOO LONG. Don't have the NERVE, with your Prejudicial MIND, to TELL ME an AFRIKAN on this RASTAFARIAN-AFROCENTRIC WEBSITE, How I shoud FEEL or THINK. Because like MANY, TOO MANY of MY PEOPLE, I do drink the SCUM of the bitter cup of Subordination, Exploitation and Slaughter EVERYDAY! Indifference, Ingratitude is TYPICAL of Caucasians it's BLATANT in your POsts. You will NEVER understand our PAIN, NEVER! It's ONLY when you will receive the same ABUSE as We AFRIKANS that this RACE ABUSE will STOP!

FREEDOM will come through our OWN effort, through our OWN Initiative now GO AWAY HYPOCRITES!

Kelani.

To: ryu9

'White violence on Whites' has always been the norm but they can easily reconcile their differences because they share common characteristics. Alienation from indigenous ancestry and symbolisms are common White characteristics. Annexing success and worthiness to brute force and individual material possessions are common European characteristics. These are not indigenous African values.

These were not the values of indigenous people who remained in sync with nature. Classifying Blacks as inferior and the ongoing racism is the legacy of Arab/European Imperialism and Slavery. This denies Blacks equal opportunity in a very material sense. I must say that even Whites do not get equal opportunity but most are able to get by with some measure of privileges at the expense of Africans. However the legacy of Slavery with its ongoing denial of the African reality is the cause of most world problems for the very point you made. It is also the reason Bush and company can treat Muslims with so much disrespect. You see Arabs today are now coming to grips with the real effects of racism and their subjugation of other people.

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"I have never 'suffered for 500 years,' but then again neither has anyone else, unless they have lived for that length of time."

This point alone speaks of your emotional and spiritual disconnection from out past as you really do not know that people can in a true sense identify with the sufferings of others including their ancestors and hence the real suffering continues until proper redress is made. Most Europeans do not get this point and it is part of the reason they are unable to feel the effects of their own destructive ways.

Most 'Europeans' lack empathy. This problem is not unique to Europeans. Other groups of people have worked hard to distance themselves from their ancestry, preferring to align themselves with the false values of what appears to be materialistic success (Whiteness). This is also an Arab story, which is different from how African Arabs view Islam.

Most fair skinned Arabs are racist and think nothing of the sufferings of Africans. In most Arab countries Blacks are treated with scorn. Islam has done nothing to address racism in Arab states and as such is an enemy of informed people. It does not matter what Islam preaches, once the people who are internalizing it are left without the means to identify with all of humanity from our common African ancestry, then Islam is no good to anyone especially Africans. The same holds true for Christianity and any so called religion that de-emphasizes the importance of identifying with our common African human beginnings.

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You may have suffered indirectly from the invasions, enslavement and oppression to which you refer, but the direct connection you draw between yourself and these past events is entirely artificial.

This is what real people call the product of miseducation. This statement alone reeks of a false superiority complex. You speak of indirect and direct as if you really understand the spiritual and emotional ties another person can have to their history. This is pseudo-intellectualism at its worst, which seeks to tell others how to feel and think about their own sufferings while not offering redress.

Now, you have not disproved anything Bantu Kelani has stated and in fact you have given credence to her statements by your very arrogant approach to the reasoning.

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No, I do not identify myself as a 'true Afrikan'- whatever that is.

This statement explains the delirium and arrogance with which you entered this debate for if you are confused or are unaware of what others mean by a true African then real education can begin from a search for that meaning.

This is the beginning of the Islamic stronghold in Africa.

Islam arrived in North Africa (the Maghreb) just seven years after the death of the Mohammed in 639. The 4,000 strong Arab invading forces came from Mecca under the leadership of the military ruler Amr ibn al-Asi. The Arabs were not entirely foreign to North Africa - they were well known as traders. There were also some well-established Arab communities. Within three years of arriving, the Arabs moved South, in retreat from the Byzantine fleet, to found the city of Cairo.

At the time of invasion the Christian Coptic Church was being persecuted on doctrinal grounds by the Byzantine church in Constantinople. Many Christians welcomed the Muslim forces as possible allies against Byzantium. In the long term, those that refused to convert to Islam were penalised. They had to pay high taxes and were barred or evicted from positions in government. There was periodic persecution, notably at the end of the 10th century and at the beginning of the 11th century.

Mansa Moussa: Pilgrimage of Gold

In 1312 Mansa Moussa, the most legendary of the Malian kings, came to the throne. Mansa Moussa was a devout Muslim who built magnificent mosques throughout his empire in order to spread the influences of Islam. During his reign, Timbuktu became one of the major cultural centers of not only Africa but of the entire Islamic world.

When Mansa Moussa came to power, the Mali Empire already had firm control of the trade routes to the southern lands of gold and the northern lands of salt. Under Moussa's reign, the gold-salt trade across the Sahara came to focus ever more closely on Timbuktu. The city's wealth, like that of many towns involved in the trans-Saharan trade route, was based largely on the trade of gold, salt, ivory, kola nuts, and slaves.

Mansa Moussa expanded Mali's influence across Africa by bringing more lands under the empire's control, including the city of Timbuktu, and by enclosing a large portion of the western Sudan within a single system of trade and law. This was a huge political feat that made Moussa one of the greatest statesmen in the history of Africa. Under Moussa's patronage, the city of Timbuktu grew in wealth and prestige, and became a meeting place of the finest poets, scholars, and artists of Africa and the Middle East.

Mansa Moussa brought the Mali Empire to the attention of the rest of the Muslim world with his famous pilgrimage to Mecca in 1324. He arrived in Cairo at the head of a huge caravan, which included 60,000 people and 80 camels carrying more than two tons of gold to be distributed among the poor. Of the 12,000 servants who accompanied the caravan, 500 carried staffs of pure gold. Moussa spent lavishly in Egypt, giving away so many gold gifts—and making gold so plentiful—that its value fell in Cairo and did not recover for a number of years!

In Cairo, the Sultan of Egypt received Moussa with great respect, as a fellow Muslim. The splendor of his caravan caused a sensation and brought Mansa Moussa and the Mali Empire fame throughout the Arab world. Mali had become so famous by the fourteenth century that it began to draw the attention of European mapmakers. In one map, produced in 1375, Moussa is shown seated on a throne in the center of West Africa, holding a nugget of gold in his right hand. historychannel.com (http://www.historychannel.com/classroom/unesco/timbuktu/mansamoussa.html)

Some people praise Mansa Moussa but in my view he put on one of the most ignorant display of opulence that fired up Europeans to exploit Africa.

Islam has taken much from Africa and has caused tremendous hardship on many Africans. Islam, by the way it gained its stronghold in Africa and is preached, dismisses the cultural values of other people and breads a false class system, which is very similar to the European class system and racism.

Bantu-Kelani, I am aware of what has happened in the Congo- and I am not telling you how you should feel. The point, however, is precisely that people are free to choose how they feel. You are not obligated to empathize with any atrocities committed against any Congolese whom you did not know; only ideology- Congolese nationalism, pan-Africanism or pan-humanism- can compel you to do that. Likewise, you are free to empathize with those who have suffered elsewhere in Africa; but again, only ideology- in this case, pan-Africanism or pan-humanism, can compel you to do that. Finally, you are free to empathize with those Germans massacred during the Thirty Years’ War; but once again, only ideology- pan-humanism- can compel you to do that. Where you draw the line is left to you.

In your most recent post you make a claim similar to the one I criticized earlier: “There was over 10,000 years of GREAT AFRICAN CIVILIZATION before the GREEKS.” Substantiate this claim: provide a definition of “civilization” and present evidence demonstrating your claim to be true based upon your definition.

Also, your references to “your People,” as well as “your missionaries” and “your savage, barbaric, brutish, hateful, non-spiritual Caucasoids/Europeans” reveals your prejudices quite well. You do not even know who I am. In case you have forgotten that, read your own post from 22 June, in which you state that “I don't know who you are or what you are.” Yet you make these unwarranted references and then hypocritically suggest that I have a “Prejudicial MIND.”

Ayinde, you begin by making the following statements:

White violence on Whites' has always been the norm but they can easily reconcile their differences because they share common characteristics. Alienation from indigenous ancestry and symbolisms are common White characteristics. Annexing success and worthiness to brute force and individual material possessions are common European characteristics. These are not indigenous African values.

Particularly troublesome is your contention that “brute force” and the acquisition of “material possessions” are not “indigenous African values.” According to the text of the Palermo stone, the earliest surviving Egyptian historical record, the Egyptian Pharaoh Snefru (c. 2623-2589 BCE) launched a campaign against the Nubians, taking 7,000 slaves and 200,000 cattle. This same Pharaoh also campaigned against the Libyans. The Egyptians also warred among themselves, as for instance, when the kings of Heracleapolis fought the kings of Thebes. Nor was aggression unknown to the Nubians. To take one example, in 770 BCE the Nubian Kashta conquered Egypt and established the 25th dynasty. Of course, certain African nations may have been less warlike than the Nubians or Egyptians, but the generalization is unwarranted.

I am not, as you claim, telling other people how they should feel. Read my most recent response to Bantu-Kelani. You take issue with the following statement: “I have never 'suffered for 500 years,' but then again neither has anyone else, unless they have lived for that length of time.”

Your argument proceeds as follows:

This point alone speaks of your emotional and spiritual disconnection from out past as you really do not know that people can in a true sense identify with the sufferings of others including their ancestors and hence the real suffering continues until proper redress is made. Most Europeans do not get this point and it is part of the reason they are unable to feel the effects of their own destructive ways. Most 'Europeans' lack empathy.

My response is simple: the process of identification is both arbitrary and artificial. The Berber tribes of the Carthaginian Empire were known as the “Afarika.” Consequently, when referring to that which is now Morocco, Algeria and Libya (and that which the Greeks called “Libya”), the early Romans spoke of “Africa.” For this use of the word, see Pliny and Pomponius Mela. After Rome subdued Carthage “Africa” became a Roman province, but the boundaries of this province shifted considerably until the first century CE. From this point onwards, the province of Africa incorporated what are now Tunisia and western Libya. The province of Mauretania incorporated what is now much of Morocco and Algeria, while the province of Cyrenaica included what is now eastern Libya. There was no such thing as “Africa” or “Africans” as these things are now understood. Such modern entities were not recognized by the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Nubians, or by anyone else in ancient times. Accordingly, there is no evidence that the people then inhabiting, for instance, modern Zimbabwe, felt any connection to the sufferings of those who inhabited Lower Nubia, when that region was conquered by Egypt around 1950 BCE. Nor did they empathize with the Egyptians when the Macedonians conquered Egypt in 31 BCE. But who can blame them for failing to identify with peoples whom they did not know and by means of a concept (Africa) that was foreign to them? Thus, if being a “true Afrikan” involves respecting the traditions of ancient peoples who lived in what is now Africa, a “true Afrikan” would not feel compelled to empathize with the sufferings of others elsewhere in Africa, because to do so would be to use a concept foreign to those ancient peoples.

I am entirely baffled by your claim that I “have not disproved anything Bantu Kelani has stated.” To return to one example, how did I not refute the assertion that, "The bible's main purpose was a justification and a rationalization for the slave trade against people outside of Europe"? To take another example, demonstrate, with recourse to evidence, that Hypatia was killed because Rome wanted to attack Egyptian culture.

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Posted by: ryu Posted on: Today at 6:10pm
Ayinde, you begin by making the following statements:

White violence on Whites' has always been the norm but they can easily reconcile their differences because they share common characteristics. Alienation from indigenous ancestry and symbolisms are common White characteristics. Annexing success and worthiness to brute force and individual material possessions are common European characteristics. These are not indigenous African values.

Particularly troublesome is your contention that “brute force” and the acquisition of “material possessions” are not “indigenous African values.”

To Ryu: Your words speaks volumes about you: you took selected parts of ayinde and twisted them around to justify your weak arguements.Ayinde said that 'Annexing success and worthiness to brute force and individual material possessions ' are not values of indiginous African values.

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Thus, if being a “true Afrikan” involves respecting the traditions of ancient peoples who lived in what is now Africa, a “true Afrikan” would not feel compelled to empathize with the sufferings of others elsewhere in Africa, because to do so would be to use a concept foreign to those ancient peoples.

Secondly the above represents a very limited understanding of ancient Afrikan traditions. Even though there may have been some cultural chauvanism existing between different ancient societies the fact remains that there was certain values and standards that were present in ancient AFrikan culture. These values include respect, justice, truth, and balance. It's not sensible to compare their attitudes towards other AFrikans to our attitudes to Afrikans because the communication and information that we can access right now at the click of a button wasn't available then. Even so, who are you to dictate to us how we should respect our ancestors? Respecting ancestors doesn't necessarily mean that we should seek to behave exactly how they behaved.

Religion in Africa: Unity in Diversity

ABSTRACT: http://www.pbs.org/

As a whole, African religious traditions combine belief in a Supreme Being with the worship of other gods and ancestors. They use ritual and magic to communicate among human beings, nature, and the gods. In many African languages, there is no word for God, because in their tradition, every thing and every place embodies God.

"The Bamboula" from Century Magazine, 1886.

Many African religions have common tenets. They share a belief in a community of deities, the idea that ancestors serve as a way to communicate with these deities, and the belief that society as a whole is organized around values and traditions drawn from a common origin, which was created by one Supreme Being.

The rituals practiced in many traditional African societies are considered to be stepping-stones to the ultimate goal of death and the afterlife. There are rituals that guide one through all of the transitional stages of life, such as birth, puberty, initiation into adulthood, marriage, having children, old age, death, and life after death. These rituals allow participants to know what society expects of them in the next stage of their lives.

Despite the universality of belief in a Supreme Being in Africa, formal, church-like worship of God was not widely practiced. Nevertheless, the concept of God is transcendent, and there is a popular myth, told from West Africa to the Upper Nile, which says that He or the sky, his dwelling place, was once much nearer to the earth.

In addition to the Supreme Being, Africans believe in many other spiritual entities, roughly divisible into nature spirits and ancestors. Some of them have both human and natural origins. It is said, however, that in sacrifices offered to other deities, the essence of the gift still goes to the Supreme Being.

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While the many traditional religions of Africa do share commonalities, it is through their differences that we get a true sense of the vastness of the continent, and the diversity existing among the men, women, and children suddenly thrust together in the New World. Many of these differences center on the particularities of the Supreme Being, and the distinct characteristics attributed to Him.

The Mbuti Pygmies, who live in the forest regions of the River Congo, believe in a great, elderly being of the sky, lord of storms and rainbows, named Tore. Before hunting, he is invoked for success in finding food. The Pygmies also revere the moon, and some say that it was the moon that molded the first man, covered him with skin, and filled him with blood. The central Pygmy deity, however, is the god of the forest, who is benevolent and to whom men pay as much respect as they do their own parents.

The Bushmen and Hottentots were the original inhabitants of southern Africa, when the first Europeans arrived at the Cape. Modern Bushmen pray to celestial spirits and tell myths and legends about them. They also pay special attention to the moon, which plays significantly in their speculations about the origins of death.

In East Africa, a common name for the Supreme Being is Mulungu, a word indicating the almighty and ever-present creator. The thunder is said to be his voice, lightning is his power, and he rewards the good and punishes the wicked. From the northern Kalahari through the Congo to Tanzania, the Supreme Being is called Leza , perhaps from the root meaning, "to cherish," as he is the one who watches over people. Leza is said to live in heaven and is transcendent and incomprehensible.

Various names for the Supreme Being are encountered in West Africa. Nyambe, perhaps from a root indicating power, is used from Botswana to Cameroon and a similar appellation, Name, is found throughout West Africa. Other divine names are: Ngewo, god of the Mende people of Sierra Leone; Amma of the Dogon of Mali; Mawu of the Ewe of Abomey; Olorun of the Yoruba, Chukwu of the Ibo, and Soko of the Nupe--all of Nigeria.

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This was your response:

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My response is simple: the process of identification is both arbitrary and artificial.

This is one of your earlier comments

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No, I do not identify myself as a 'true Afrikan'- whatever that is.

This was/is my response

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This was my other comment

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White violence on Whites' has always been the norm but they can easily reconcile their differences because they share common characteristics. Alienation from indigenous ancestry and symbolisms are common White characteristics. Annexing success and worthiness to brute force and individual material possessions are common European characteristics. These are not indigenous African values.

This was your distortion

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Particularly troublesome is your contention that "brute force" and the acquisition of "material possessions" are not "indigenous African values."

This explains your conduct

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My knowledge of African religious practices is weak. Do any of these cultures have sacred texts? If not, have their beliefs or theologies been recorded in modern times?

My response is the same as above

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Now I guess you may like some help here

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Your summary was helpful, but I much prefer to read original texts as opposed to interpretations of or hearsay regarding them. I hope that my posts bear this out.

But SIR, you are still rude and obnoxious. You first come to an African/Rasta forum while ignorant of African cultures/spirituality and feel you can play semantics with academic data that is readily available on the Internet. You attempted to disrespect an African sister who has real experiences to go with the positions she takes.

What you prefer to read is not my concern. It is the arrogance that goes with the ignorance of African values that concerns us about how many engage African communities.

Can you not see that this conduct is exactly what the sister is speaking about?

Ayinde, since you raise the issue of “disrespect,” it must first be said that respect should not be placed on a one-way street. While critical of certain statements made by Bantu-Kelani, my first post was not disrespectful. Yet I was greeted by a rant in which, among other things, I was falsely accused of “insidiously making an apology for the Religious Invasions.” More recently, Bantu-Kelani has implied that I uphold some “white supremacist agenda.” Meanwhile, you have made allegations as to my “arrogance” and “delerium,” as well as call me “rude and obnoxious.” I have never made such accusations and ad hominem attacks. Thus far, Rootsie is the only person to have responded to my posts with respect- and I have tried to respond in kind.

Related to this is the fact that most responses to my post have focused on my identity- as if my identity alone can establish or deny the veracity of my arguments. Indeed, most recently you have erroneously suggested that my ignorance of certain African “cultures/ spirituality” (to which I fully admit) is even relevant to the issues I first raised. On the contrary:

I do not need to know about the said African cultures/ spirituality in order to question the contention that "The bible's main purpose was a justification and a rationalization for the slave trade against people outside of Europe. That is the whole purpose and it was created from a collection of books for European Power desires."

I do not need to know about the said African cultures/ spirituality in order to question the claims, as left unsubstantiated, that "What the world fail to realize is that before Europe came into existence in 808 BCE with Homer there was over 10,000 years of African Civilization before the Greeks and AFRICAN WERE MUCH MORE SPIRITUAL AND HAD MUCH MORE INTEGRITY."

I do not need to know about the said African cultures/ spirituality in order to question the assertion that "Now Islam and the Arabs came to Africa when the Africans were trying to get the Romans of their Back and Islam and the Arabs did get the Romans off the Africans Back."

I do not need to know about the said African cultures/ spirituality in order to question the claim that "Bible LITERALISM is OUTDATED and MEDIAVAL, BEST LEFT TO THOSE in DARKAGES!!"

I do not need to know about the said African cultures/ spirituality in order to question Bantu_Kelani’s interpretation of the destruction of the temple of Serapis, the destruction of the library of Alexandria and the murder of Hypatia.

I do not need to know about the said African cultures/ spirituality in order to question the claim that " during this same time archaeology findings like the Rosetta stone were producing replica texts of Christianity before there was a Bible produced."

As I made clear (see point 4 in my first post), Bantu-Kelani had no knowledge of the theological traditions of medieval Christendom. Two comparisons need to be made. First, just as I do not need any knowledge of the said African traditions in order, for example, to argue that the murder of Hypatia was not motivated by Rome’s desire to extinguish Egyptian culture, she does not need knowledge of medieval European theology in order to discuss the policies of Leopold II. Secondly, there is an important difference between us: while she makes statements about things of which she knows little (medieval theology, etc.), I refrain from discussing those things of which I am ignorant. Indeed, I have readily sought knowledge of these things from those who appear to be knowledgeable of them.

Africa Speaks Reasoning Forum

GENERAL => Special Reasonings Archive => Topic started by: Bantu_Kelani on June 15, 2003, 11:03:59 PM