Can the 'Whiteness' of Mind be Changed?

[Ayinde]

Posted By: Nat Turner on the Rastafari Speaks Board
Date: Tuesday, 29 April 2003, at 1:37 p.m.

A question in context: If whiteness is a diversified state of mind for all white people, can it ever really be changed or erased so that global supremacy (both conscious and unscious) no longer exists?

Can white supremacy be destroyed without destroying the white race?

If so how can it be done?

Other responses on the Rastafari Speaks Board

I'll hold my comments until Whites show an interest in this reasoning.

[John_Pancakes]

I'll do my best with this one. First, I'm not sure I think this is a fair question. I'm not convinced that "whiteness is a diversified state of mind for all white people;" I think you will find significantly different states of mind amongst whites that do not mesh. For example, there are large differences amongst whites of different social strata - a white who grew up in East Dallas like myself will find virtually no common ground with a Boston Brahmin or the average French or European white.

I think much of what we are refering to here as "whiteness" is cultural. Race is genetic and cannot be changed; cultural attitudes and traits are absorbed and malleable. It's a difficult process for anyone to attempt to change their cultural conditioning, regardless of race or social standing. Plus, no one can totally change what they were raised to be despite their best intentions. On top of that, ALL people are tainted by sin.

I believe that ALL cultures have something to offer... I believe all cultures have faults and excesses as well. Much like a marriage where men and women, two species that are vastly different, join together to balance each other out and create a "perfect union," I think all of the world's cultures have much to learn and much to teach, regardless of whether the culture is white, black, or in between. (I realize this is utopian).

This is where Jah and the doctrine of grace comes in: we all fall short and it is up to us to nurture a spirit of repentance in order to be transformed by grace. That is the only way to create any sort of unity, "... a peace together, a peace apart." To make a large generalization, whether it is the colonial and arrogant attitude of the haves or the desperate angry attitude of the have nots, we all fall short. And that has nothing to do with race.

Sorry if this is insufficient reasoning, but it's what I have for now. Peace to you.

[Ayinde]

The point to this reasoning is that most Africans and other non-Whites feel that Whites deal with them with a superiority complex. Sometimes they become very patronizing which is still operating with a superiority complex.

Although Whites disagree on many things like all other people, this one 'character flaw' underlines their general conduct towards Blacks and all others who are considered non-Whites. (Few exceptions)

The real questions should be:

1) Is the perception about Whites having a superiority complex when dealing with non-Whites a correct one?

2) If so, can Whites change from this conduct?

3) If so, how can they change?

I personally feel if there is a breakthrough in this reasoning then it is good for future race relations. Given the fact that on these boards Blacks have been the most expressive on these issues, I think more Whites should put on the table their views on how this can be resolved. Then we can take the reasoning forward.

[John_Pancakes]

As a white person, I can honestly state that if I do approach other races or colors with a superiority complex, it is completely unintentional.

I see your point and I would agree: I'm not quite sure how to put it into words but it is somewhat akin to the "spiritual tourist" who continually looks for new yogis and gurus to patronize without really absorbing any insight... maybe a "cultural tourist." I see whites who patronize nonwhites for a sense of the exotic; people who listen to world music at home but doesn't know any black people.

The issue makes me wonder if I'm doing the same thing now by taking part in this message board. I hope not.

I need to ponder this more. Perhaps more examples could be given concerning this superiority complex.

[Ayinde]

It is true that often these are unconscious complexes born out of miseducation and habit. When I point it out it is because I hope others become aware of it and in so doing recognize the need to learn.

If people feel to engage a Rasta setting then it is understood that they must come as they are with all their faults. Pointing out the race, gender and superiority complex issues are about correcting perceptions and attitudes.

But are some people coming to the table to learn then help improve or are they participating with continuing ignorance hoping to change that which they do not understand.

Often people get involved without even a partial understanding of what Rastafari means and they condemn without first availing themselves of the relevant history.

[Princess Tracey]

This issue comes to the table again and again...and most likely will continue to for quite some time...as the feelings are quite raw and a subtle forms of mental slavery still exhist to this day!...though not quite as overt ..yet still alive and well in many a so-called "progressive mind."

I feel some people are finally begining to address some of these hard core issues through dialogues such as these..and questions, statements, and experiances, fly like sparks as it is indeed a very deep and highly charged emotional issue that has many layers beneath the surface.

My observations has been that for whites...the history of slavery is such an ugly hiddeous event in the history of the Americas ...that it is disassociated with as much as possible. .swept under the rug...looked over...with an uncomfortable "let's not talk about this" mentality...  It is painful to look at, and acknowledge what has been done to a whole nation of people that are a vital part of who we are today as a nation ..(and not just blacks...but for the sake of discussion will leave it here)..

"White priviledge" is something that a sister dropped some heavy knowledge on me awhile ago...and it wasn't until I became deeply involved with many a brother and sister, that I came to realize I had not the awareness to see many of these issues before...but had rather totally taken for granted many of the priviledges I had, to float freely through society as I pleased without a thought or care as to who might be waiting in the wings to harrass me...or question me...or give me some negative comment, or disdainful look, based solely  upon the color of my skin. It wasn't until I had started to attend some purely black events that I began to feel what many of my black brothers and sisters feel constantly in this society for the first time...being judged by the color of one's skin. It certainly gave me a new perspective and opened my eyes wide on a whole nother level.  

I began to see, that no matter where one goes...judgement will always follow...be you black..be you white...be you hispanic..native american...and especially nowadays..middle eastern...but something vital I learned, is that individual people are on different levels of many issues based upon their experiances and environments...to some blacks...I will never be able to connect with...their pain is too great...and all they would ever be able to see is my blonde hair, blue eyes, and white skin...a symbol that represents something that they cannot get beyond...yet to those willing to look beyond and within, and into the person...have I been able to forge some very deep and meaningful relationships to last a lifetime and many times over..these are my inner sanctom friends with whom I treasure a deep and loving relationship..respect and honesty are key..

My analysis, observations, and experiances of this very complex and deep rooted situation is to be willing to LOOK at the past and present with an open eye...and acknowledge the truth seen....to not assume that all knowledge of history is correct... as much of recorded history was built pon many lies and does not necessarily reflect nor represent the truth as it truly evolved although it does give some important information worth recognizing and validating..(dig deeper)

My advice is to get involved with people from all walks... different cultures.. different socio-economic levels..
be open.. BE WHO YOU ARE... do not come off as an echo of another culture... be honest... and be willing to question yourself as well as the person with whom you are sharing with... mutual respect goes a long way when extended sincerely.. talk.. question.. and most of all LISTEN... allow yourself to hear !

As a white skinned person the oppt. exhists to be the EXCEPTION to the rule... stand UP for who Jah create you / me to be... no need to camelionize yur skin.. or grovel on your knees... get up off the floor!  If the shoe don't fit.. DON"T WEAR IT!  Jah create you and all of wondrous beautiful creation for a reason to serve HIS purpose... culture being a part of that purpose. Accept who you are... love who you are... love others for who they are... live, learn, love, and grow from ALL things!

blessed reasonings......so much more

[Ras Mandingo]

Ayinde,

The race story in Brasil is a little different then in the U.S. . Here is not explicit, it's dissimulated.

Sometimes I feel that the superiority complex is really jsut a reflex of the inferiority complex that was forcedly indoctrinated by colonialism.

What I mean is that, if you don't act with superiority intentions, and you are a white middle (or higher) class one, people will find it strange and feel difficulty to believe in that at the first contact.

This has happened to me in two different situations recently. One was the Capoeira story that I already reasoned with you. The other was going to meet I girlfriends mother. She's black and from  the ghetto. They consider me a white one that lives in an apartment, with job, car and so on...so her mother would be afraid I was just a playboy trying to use and abuse her treasure. But after meeting me she relaxed and I saw I am different from majority of people around.

Some people may be interpreted as beeing superior, when they are just naturally beeing themselves, without agreesive attitude, respecting the others, and this happens when people don't know each ohter and won't to seat and reason.

If the inferiority complex was forced by slavery and colonialism, it also has to be worked out.

How I see this is that white people like me (funny this, here I'm considered white(r), in Urope Arabic Brown) can help people transcend their inferiority complex by showing them how this exists and must be corrected and trancended. So I intent to use my education to desmistify certain topics by I attitude and I works.

Just to give an example: A black collegue was saying to me how I had a GOOD hair in his hair was BAD hair. I asked hiw what does that mean, good and bad hair, how can this possibly be? Every hair is good and was a gift of the almighty.
I said your beautiful man, you should love yourself more, uplift your mind and perception. You know you come from the oldest societies of this planet and you must have royal lineage in your blood.

Just I humble sight.

Did you check I photo gallery? I'm adding picturesd today

Blessed Reasoning,

Mandingo.

[IanI]

Greetings Irie Ones,

Two things me want to respond to here...
First: Ras Mandingo:

"How I see this is that white people like me... can help people transend their inferiority complex..."

Now, how should I put this?... Listen man... if you de considered "white", is truely not up to you to "show" a black one how to overcome inferiority complex due to the skin colour. This is taking IanI right to the same thing that always go on... the patronization of you darker skinned bredren. You may not see within youself the attitude of "patronization"... you may feel that you only want to "help"...
yet... if you were to delve deeper into you-self... you would find that the attitude that you de "know more" and can help the blackman from his pit of ignorance and inferiority is ingrained in you psyche.
Me no never want to see no white one come into the hills and show all the black bredren and sistren that them can "do better"... "feel better"... "act better"... if them only listen to what the whiteman have to tell them!
And me see it happen far to often!
White ones come sayin, "oh look at the poor black ones here! I can help them!" never for once realizing that them "poor black ones" actually have plenty to show THEM!!!
And far too often I no hear the white ones say, "oh, look how wonderful these people live! I hope I can be teached by them! Make me shut me mouth and LISTEN for a time!"
hahaha!!!!!
get me?

So when Ayinde asks the question about "can whites change from this conduct?"... I only see it happen pon the rarest of occasion.
It takes the white one long, long, long time and serious meditation to even begin to achieve this. And even then them must catch themselves at times falling back into the trap of the brainwashment. It is a thing that must be worked upon constantly...
and be realized as a "condition" that MUST be overcome! Continuously.

And so next me respond to this: warriorprincess:

"It wasn't until I started to attend some purely black events that I began to feel what many of my black brothers and sisters feel constantly in this society..."

Now here we have one that is working pon the problem. And not just by lookin for a black partner... but by lookin at the "other side' of her livity. In the caribean I see most white ones live in segregated communities and only go into market and such where all the black ones are... briefly... and run back home and lock the door!
They love them black gardener and them black maid, but... cho
The only few me see come into the hills is the church missionary ones... and them got the "attitude" that them is gonna "save" these poor black people. Cause even though most people in the hills is christian... them a the 'wrong' christian according to the missionary... and so them must come help them see the light!!!!
Still... the attitude of superiority!

And so Ayinde...
the answer to you questions is:
"whites have superiority complex?"... absolutely, no doubt about it.
"can they change from this conduct?"... absolutely, but it is a strenuous and effort-full and continuous process. It cannot be achieved from a distance.
"how can it be achieved?" It can only be achieved by destroying the attitude and stripping away the layer upon layer upon layer of defenses and rationalizations and whitewashments and fears bred into the Hearts/Minds. By gaining TRUE respect and honour and appreciation and admiration for a people they barely know.
How? By trying and trying and trying to become humble... a VERY difficult thing to do in a society that breeds ones to be haughty, arrogant and vain. And well achieves it in the sub-conscious.
If you are unaware of it... you cannot work to change it.

And I have suggested to ones upon this machine often... if you de want to learn from Rasta... go see if you can live with them. Reject all a you privilege... live in a community that is all a different skin colour from youself. No little visit sort a thing... LIVITY.
Is a rough thing to do...
but I know that unless this thing a happen...
and people work to uplift and to know...
things no change at all.
It would be a VERY rare one that could achieve the true Awareness from a distance... with no significant experience in them Life.
It does happen... but that is even more rare!! hahaha!!!

So... this issue not go away until ones and ones a face it honestly and fully. All the while...

Give thanks for reasoning!
Truth a the Way...
Thanks and Praises

ONE LOVE/HEART/MIND
IanI Rastafari
Guidance and Protection

[John_Pancakes]

Thank you, I will take theses comments to heart. I try to approach everyone I meet with a spirit of humbleness, and I fail quite often.

I believe that all humans are plagued with the sin of narcissism. Unfortunately those who need this type of reasoning the most will never seek it out!

[Princess Tracey]

blessed reasonings IanI,

surely you feel and know what is pon my heart...as I sight everything the I bring forth from the deep tap root of the heart and soul

I give this great meditation to bring forth from my own experiances...the only thing I know...and can see from...

it occur to me over and over as the I say..."awareness"..is key!!

...SO many layers!

you see...people do not want to look at the truth...cause truth is not always pretty.. or happy...or joyful...or feels good...sometime it stink...is rank...is fowl...is painful...and hurt!  ...whoa...run the other way most say...get it away away AWAY!!...give me something to cover it up with...or wash it over with..

...ahhh ...here come the layers pon layers...

bury it...till the eye can't see ...till the heart can't feel it..
till the mind lie totally UNAWARE... (alseep at the wheel)

so many settle for the superficial trinkets of this world....
rather than realize the depths of their soul...sigh

my experiances have taught me deeply...that in order to move beyond to the other side...one must FIRST - LOOK..
hold it up to the light..Jah light..bring judgment down pon thine OWNSELF... then, and only THEN, can come the birth of new realizations and the threshold of new awarenesses!

People so busy runnin from the truth/themselves, and filling their head with junk...they are useless in dealing with any subsitive matters that require one to walk through the fire of their own experiances... a flame that has the power to burn off that which is false...can we as a collective look at what is OUR OWN falseness??...ahhhhh...sadly not many...as rightly said...it is the RARE individual who seeks not to prop up HIMSELF...but rather walk with a sincere honesty that is humble, and open to others teaching HIM...

Many whites feel that if they have a "token" one or two black friends ...that that means they are not a racist...but I have observed that many of these token black friends had many white similarities/characteristics, and the cultural divide IS still quite an expansive gap!

The black and white issue is one of MANY in this world of great illusions...it is but a symptom of a sick and ailing society..

And yes IanI...it was only when I walked down the streets and into the hood, sat on the porches, talked, communed, went into peoples houses, invited people into my house... ate meals/broke bread..worked, sang, slept, built, shared along side of ..did the scales fall off my eyes...

but it wasn't easy...and many was the time I was ridiculed for being white in an all black arena...(who she think she IS?? - what's SHE doing here??) but it stregnthened me to FEEL much of this anger and where it come from AND WHY...it forced me to LOOK at myself on a level I had never been challenged to do so before...and it showed me that respect is a TWO way street...it also showed me why the distrust...but it also showed me a the power of a deep love that sprang forth from many a brother and sister that came forth and eventually welcomed me with open hearts souls and minds as we shared in varieties of things TOGETHER...it was only through allowing these experiances to open me wide and teach me from inside ...did I in fact GET to the other side..

does that mean I am welcomed with open arms wherever I go now?...absolutely NOT...these things take time to build...alll I know is that it is through working together, sharing, and communing, being humble, being honest, being authentic, do we begin the process of opening up, and forging a new way of thinking..

Certainly these experiances I do not see happening for most UNLESS you are willing to allow yourself to walk through the fire and look into a new mirror..

Life WILL most assuradley come to reveal her treasure to dem with eyes that are willing to SEE...but see it ALL one must...the lies, the deciept, the illusions of reality...ONLY then.. can the true JAHKINGDOM within make manifest it's gracious magnificent splendid glory beyond what the pale eyes of the limited flesh can see...

I look at so many of the faces today...eyes empty unable to look nor see except what lie pon the superficial surface..

where safe secure blinders keep the real world ...

far far AWAY  

[Ayinde]

Your eyes are ‘opened’ so you are seeing and not just looking.

Incidentally, I feel there are about four other Whites on these forums (including Jeff) that can make a breakthrough on race relations. But I do not intend to publicly give my ideas on a process while there are many other Whites on these forums who feel these discussions are irrelevant. Once they hold that position then I know they are too dishonest to be able to develop further and they deserve the criticisms of others.

Hats off to the two Whites on this thread and the other woman on the other forum who have the courage to view the issue for what it is.

I would still like to see other Whites join this reasoning before we can start working out the grey areas.

[livelyup]

Greetings to all,

and apologies for my late entry into this debate. It has been my policy to stay away from these sorts of questions on the general board, as i feel that they too quickly degenerate into slanging matches with no productive outcome. But here things seem a little different, particularly since Ayinde has been good enough to define the ideas down to a point wher they are able to be discussed with a little clarity. Give thanks.

So, ...  to address the questions that have been posed.

Do white people approach black people with a sense of superiority? Indeed I would say that they do. I would say that the exact form that this superiority takes varies considerably, from the sort of vaguely patronising 'what can I help you with?' thing, to the outright treatment of black people as being somehow sub-human. This is my experience of my fellow caucasian folk in general. There are, of course exceptions, but i believe this to be generally the case. A kind of suplementary question would be, why do white people do have a sense of superiority? My answer would be that the problem has little to do with our skin pigmentation and everything to do with our fundamental sense of cultural values, and our history, which are inextricably linked. White culture is based almost totally on the value attributed to material things. So if using this as your fundamental value base it is not hard to see how a superiority complex might evolve. Put simply, white people in general terms have more 'stuff' than black people. We are in charge economically and militarily, therefore we are the best. The fact that white people so consistently hold this view (i think...) lies in the kind of cultural history that we have had since Roman times. Before the roman invasions europe was a very diverse place, with a variety of material and spiritual values holding sway. talk of 'white people' as some sort of homogenous group would have been fairly absurd. This changed when the majority of white people came under the sway of a single authority, first in the form of the romans, then in the form of the church and its close partner the state. It became possible for unified sets of cultural values to be transmitted to a whole racial group, and the white superiority complex was born.

None of this is intended as any kind of excuse, it is simply explanatory, and it is speculative at that....
white people have a culture that is unique in the values it is founded upon, and the single mindedness with which these values have been pursued, regardless of the human cost. Indeed this materialism expresses itself in horrifying ways amongst white people themselves, let alone those who are seen as inferior. Our culture has replaced its soul with profit, and wisdom with information. Our own ancestors worst nightmares are now reality.

Which brings me to
can this superiority complex change? Once again i say yes, i do not believe that white people were always racist, and have met some individuals who i think are not, so it follows that racism is unlikely to be some kind of unavoidable genetic trait.

How do we effect this change? Ahhhh.... here is the rub. What we are talking about is fundamentally changing the values that are the foundation of a livity of hundreds of millions of people. Not just white people either, our culture is like a virus, it is spreading, now black, brown, and even green people can be white too. There will always be a grass roots movement that attempts to show individuals that this racist superiority complex is insane, and that the values that support this view are morally and intellectually bankrupt. But will this ever become a mass movement? Will white people ever really realise what they have done over the few thousand years? One of the reasons that i have not involved myself in the debate over reparations is my sense of the enormity of what this could mean. how exactly do you recompense a whole racial group for thousands of years of rape, slaughter, and pillage. And once you have established that principle, and decided to base your policy on righteousness, you have women, the young, the poor, children, the disabled, the different, to think about, because white people have been systematically abusing these folk too. There is not enough money in the whole world for true reparations to black people, let alone everyone else.

So .... i actually think that eventually white people as a whole will generally realise the idiocy of their ways, but that this will take generations. And much reasoning. Jah speed the day when this is no longer an issue, but that day is not now.

love and life
paul

[kristine]

Greetings..Sharing some observations..first I will state and please bear with me..The behavior of the white race is currently at an all time high regarding arrogance...Technology used for so long to blind people is now turning the tables and exposing to the right people on both sides of the race issue the evilness being perpetuated...The structer is starting to fall..At the same time this is happening Black People are unifying to highest levels of conciousness...The tables are turning naturally...I don't think too many White People will be invited to the party...

I am going on ten years of marrige and have a daughter..One of the things we teach our youth is she is human first and Black forever..

In my dealings in this life I have come to know Black People are one of the few races walking the earth who still dwell conciously with JAH...the few White People who humble are able to see a glimmer of the reflection..Unfortunately having been given this gift they will forget about humbling and lose the gift..leaving babbling idiots who hold no truths...until again they can humble...

[Jeff]

Greetings All

I have been lurking about in the shadows, reading the reasonings, taking time to digest before spouting off at the mouth and then sticking my foot in it.

The first thought that comes to mind when I read the title of this thread is the Black Uhuru song that has the line: "no matter if you're black, or if you have a white mind..." There is a definite syndrome (white/Western/'civilized' superiority complex) that plagues the human race, mostly white people, but also people of other colors and ethnicities as well (as western civ spreads its claws around the globe). I notice it at my job all the time. White people will do something or say something to either the Chinese cooks or the Mexican dishwashers, or even behind their backs, that only add to the stereotypes they (Mexicans and Chinese) might have of white people. Most of the time, if I call them on it, they realize that they are sub-consciously doing it, it seems so ingrained. I don't think they mean intentional harm, but it is so part of the psyche that it just happens.

I agree with IanI about white people and the way they view, let's say, the Ras there on JAH Lightning's land. I have always wanted to go to JA and go up to the hills to LEARN from the Elder Ras. I have heard some white Rasta sisters say that they want to go "liberate the sisters" in the JA Rasta scene, and I can only smile and think about how they need to go and LEARN. This all stems from the whole colonialistic mentality, the "white man's burden" of "civilizing the under-developed savages" etc. It reminds me of Speech's song Mr. Wendal...are we really civilized?

Western civ. could have learned much from the Chinese, the Native American Indians, the Africans and the Hindus, but it is the white superiority complex that plagues us time and again. I honestly feel white people need to humble themselves and try and learn from these other great, non-white cultures.

I find myself plagued by white mind all the time, I will be the first to admit. At times I get all upset at what people say about white folks, but then when I get past that and actually observe how white people act, in my everyday world, then I see that most of those stereotypes hold true.

On another side of this reasoning, I have a good friend who is a black Ras and he is always telling me that race doesn't matter. So where do I go from there?

One other thought, I see a lot of white people come into Rasta and learn about black-ness and Africa etc. and then develop a certain self-hate attitude. As a white man, I realize the mistakes of my anscestors, and the ever-going perpetuation of white/Western superiority, but I also have some pride in my own roots and family history. As I have mentioned before, my grandfather had to move to Colorado from Texas for desegregating his church. And my grandparents on my mom's side were poor Okie "white trash" who picked grapes with the Mexians here in Cali. I suppose that this experience had made my grandparents a bit more humble as they had virtually no rights when they came to this state from Oklahoma. I never heard my grandfather make racial remarks, and he always had a mistrust of the government and rich white folk. Thinking back on it, he never had that white superiority complex that my own dad seems to have.

One more question to add to this reasoning: is this a "white" mind or a "Western civilization" mind-set that plagues this world? I suppose that the two can be inter-twined...any thoughts?

JAH LOVE
Jeff

[selassieilive]

Greetings Jeff
The "white" mindset is the white supremist mindset.  I think the "hatred" that some whites feel for their race is justified.  U-ropeans have been a cancer in the world for a long time.  So maybe it is good for them to deny self(ego), which means to come outside of self, and realeyes that all are equal in Jah sight.  It will take a change in power and control for U-ropeans to humble themselves and let loose of this supremacist mindset.  So some things must be destroyed for that to happen.

When they realeyes that Jah control all things, then maybe healing will come.  Blackness will prevail.

Blessed
selassieilive